A Conversation for The Freedom From Faith Foundation

Deprogramming children

Post 1301

deackie

"The point I was making is that parents might, with the best will in the world, stunt their children's spiritual development by single-faith teaching. As long as there are enough varied influences in the child's life they'll still be okay, but if a child is isolated in one religious view-point and all others are mocked, called evil or ignored, then the poor child has no hope of normal development."

Are you trying to suggest that I am stunted and abnormally developed? My parents were (and still are) very religious. I was brought up in the Church. Before I started school, all my social activities were church activities, I went to a Nursery School run by two strictly religious women who taught us to love Jesus. My first infant school teacher used to have us saying prayers morning and afternoon. When I was at school, RE meant learning about Christianity and Assembley involved hymn singing, prayers and a Christian message. I wasn't taught about other religions until I was 14. I remember borrowing a book on the supernatural from the school library when I was about 10. My parents complained to the headmistress about its availability and it was removed from general loan. I used to look at the shelf it was on as I passed, wanting to have the chance to read it properly but knowing it was out of bounds for me. Even in my teens, nearly all my social activities were church centred. I was always told that going to church was my choice, until I tried to refuse to go and then it was no longer my choice. What hope is there for me then?


Deprogramming children

Post 1302

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

You're still young enough at 14.

I was too strong in that assertion. It can lead to a stunted development (in that sense), although need not always.

And although you weren't taught about other religions until you were 14, did you mix with people of other religions?

Would you agree that that kind of isolation makes it more difficult to make informed religious decisions until you break out of it?
Do you think it would have been better for you if you had had a more open upbringing and knew more about other faiths from an early age?


Deprogramming children

Post 1303

MaW

I'm not sure if it's generally better for each individual person, but I think the world in general would be a better place if people were raised in a more open religious environment, where they are exposed to and get the chance to examine other faiths on a regular basis. Look, for an example of why religious ignorance is bad, at certain incidents involving Muslims in the wake of September 11th. Some people decided all Muslims were to blame for it - and why would they do that if they knew that Muslims are just like themselves, just walking a different path?

We don't have to be able to agree with someone's religion in order to respect their choice. Of course, that assumes they chose to follow it, another reason for an open upbringing. If a child's raised as a Christian and chooses to follow Christianity after learning about other faths, that's great. If a child's raised a Christian but instead chooses to follow Buddhism, or Islam, or Wicca, or Druidism or anything else, that's great too - because they've made their own decision in their own way.

I will not, of course, condone anybody being forced into a decision about their faith. But then that's a Wiccan thing too...


Deprogramming children

Post 1304

deackie

I lived in an area that was not at all multi-cultural. The only people I mixed with from other religions was a girl at school who's family were Jehovah's Witnesses and the family next door who were Mormons. It was made perfectly clear to me from my parents that these people were wrong in their beliefs, and I wasn't encouraged to find out anymore. The eduction I got at 15/16 about other religions was 1/2 an hour a week in school and mainly consisted of colouring in Hindu symbols. It didn't add any great amount to my knowledge of world religions. The focus was still mostly on Christianity although we were encouraged to have discussions on moral and ethical issues.

I would agree that kind of 'isolation' does make it very difficult to make informed religious decisions because you have no opportunity to discover other points of view. Even though many of my friends at school were atheists, they were atheists because their parents were, not because they had been exposed to other ways of thinking and made their own decisions. The first time I found a different way of thinking was studying Plato for A-level.

I don't think it would have necessarily been better for me not to have had such an 'isolated' upbringing. I seem to know far more about religion, spirituality and philosophy than most of the people I know who weren't brought up in one set of beliefs and I have discovered my own sense of spirituality while many others haven't. All people are brought up to follow their parents beliefs whether they are linked to a religion, or are political or philosophical. Everyone gets to a point when they have to choose what they think. I can't imagine that many parents ensure that they give their children a broad, balanced, unbiased view of the world. One good thing about my upbringing is that I generally know more about the Bible and Christian doctrine than those trying to convert me. It's very handy as they can't try and give me any great revelations and I can usually run rings around them with counter-arguments.

To move the argument one step further: if parents shouldn't be allowed to teach children about their religious beliefs, they also shouldn't be able to encourage them to left or right wing politics, or instill any moral values in them. Morality is an individual thing, don't teach children what is right and wrong, let them find out for themselves.


Deprogramming children

Post 1305

Gone again

Deackie said <>

Exactly. smiley - ok The hard fact of life that Queex may be missing (?) is that children are *unable* to make their own choices during their early lives, so someone (their parents) has to do it for them. This is the privilege, and duty, of parenthood. smiley - ok

With hindsight, children may realise that they would have preferred some other initiation into the mysteries of life, but that's the benefit that hindsight extends. smiley - dohsmiley - winkeye Without the decisions your parents made for you, you couldn't've reached the situation where you were able to make them for yourself! smiley - doh Hard but true. Just like "You'll understand when you're older." God, how that phrase used to annoy me! smiley - biggrin But the problem was mine, not the people who were saying it to me.

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Deprogramming children

Post 1306

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

But-

It is the responsibility of the parents to make sure that the child will one day be able to make those sorts of decisions, and by pushing their own agenda down the child's throat they may prevent that. That would be an abuse of the responsibility placed in the parent. There are many ways for the child to develop this decision-making capability, and there are many ways for them to be denied it.

Where children grow up to find their own way and find out about other religions, it is often in spite of their up-bringing rather than because of it.

Children are unable to make reasoned decisions about morality or religion (obviously), but if all they are given is a set of rules and beliefs to follow then they still won't be able to make them when they reach adulthood. Throw a rock at a gathering of fundamentalists and the chances are you'll hit someone who has never given sensible thought as to why they follow the religion they do and who is completely incapable of understanding different people's viewpoints on the matter. It is not enough to teach a child the truth (whatever you think the truth is), you have to teach them ways to find the truth for themselves. This goes for religion, morality, everything. To teach them how to find out the truth, you have to expose them to different influences.

To choose to embrace a belief system is a very fine thing, but too narrow an upbringing can deny the child that right to choose, or at the very least delay it.

It's part of a wider problem of parenthood; many parents seek to turn their children into idealised versions of themselves (what an ego trip) instead of encouraging them to find their own way. The duty of parenthood is to try and ensure that your children will surpass you, in whatever capacity they choose, not mimic you.


Deprogramming children

Post 1307

Gone again

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It looks to me like you're still missing the point, Queex. You can't (and shouldn't, even if you could) bring up your children as 'blank slates' for them to fill in themselves when they're mature. Instead of their parents views and opinions, which you despise so much (?), they'll have NOTHING AT ALL! smiley - doh

You can't put off learning until you're mature because you can't reach maturity without some learning. [Stop. ... Think. ... Take several deep breaths. smiley - winkeye]

I think you're describing an ideal world, and I don't think you are a parent.... smiley - winkeye

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Deprogramming children

Post 1308

GTBacchus

QQ: "Where children grow up to find their own way and find out about other religions, it is often in spite of their up-bringing rather than because of it."

Is that a bad thing? I was raised Catholic, and discovered free-thinking viewpoints.... I'd say "in reaction against" my upbringing, rather than "in spite of" it. The process of beginning with a grounding in one place, and then breaking free of that grounding, might be much more educational and good for one's spiritual development than never having a grounding in the first place. One must walk first, then fly.


QQ: "Children are unable to make reasoned decisions about morality or religion (obviously), but if all they are given is a set of rules and beliefs to follow then they still won't be able to make them when they reach adulthood. "

False. Most radical thinkers that I'm aware of were raised just as you say: "given a set of rules and beliefs to follow". Why would you want to give a child nothing against which to react? (Where's the fun in that? smiley - winkeye)


GTB


Deprogramming children

Post 1309

Jose Minge, Chair and Keeper of The Imperial Deafness, don't you know.

Erm I went to a CofE school until I was about eight and encouraged by my parents, peers and teachers to attend Church. My parents are agnostics, so were probably worried about me not being accepted by the other pupils (it's excusable). I moved to a secular environment at eight moving to east sussex (from Bradford). Very quickly I noticed that the Religious Education lessons were entirly aimed for the benefit of christians at the secular school, but at my old school I was taught Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism. Since noticing this I 'unconsciously' became an Athiest. I felt the fact that I was no longer given the 'full picture' was unfairly constricting me. Later in senior chool the teachers encouraged us to think of other religions in a derogatory manner and hardly covered any other thing else apart from chritianity. I immediatly thought that these are the 'love your brother' brigade - how hippocritical. I am an Athiest and have more respect for other peoples views/life/clothing. I wouldn't mind but this only finished school six years ago, not in 1382! I suppose I should have just said I learned to Deprogram myself.


Deprogramming children

Post 1310

Jose Minge, Chair and Keeper of The Imperial Deafness, don't you know.

Oh i requested 'membership' earlier but obviously I put the request in the wrong place. I've been ill. Honest.


Deprogramming children

Post 1311

Jose Minge, Chair and Keeper of The Imperial Deafness, don't you know.

Oh i requested 'membership', as Chair of Imperial deafness, earlier but obviously I put the request in the wrong place. I've been ill. Honest.


Deprogramming children

Post 1312

Phryne- 'Best Suppurating Actress'

to Q.
sort of. Obviously it's no good to encase a child rigidly in one belief system with *no* access (and I mean, none at all- faith schools, monitoring of friends, censure of other external influences etc. Like those Amish who don't allow their offspring to go into the world and make their choice.) but I can't see that we can, or should, do anything about it. However the only example I can see happening in this country (regardless of strict religious upbringing- which may not only prove counterproductive, but some alternative ideas are going to get in somewhere) is a self-contained cult, which usually get some kind of legal interest especially if children are involved.
I would support the compulsory comparative religion. (And get rid of those bloody prayer assemblies and hymn practice in non-religious schools. smiley - grr) If one wishes a child to be instructed in the faith chosen for them- until they are old enough to make that decision themself- do it outside of school, by taking them to a place of worship, activities like Bible study for example, etc.
I see no great difference between a strict, exclusive religious upbringing and hothousing a child to excel in a particular subject, if both are to the detriment of all alternatives.
Still, it is difficult for a parent to give a balanced upbringing to a child; if they themselves are not knowledgeable in comparative religion, they shouldn't be expected to learn it in order to 'round out their offspring'. Even trivial things are set by the parents' personal preferences, often where they shouldn't be (like your mother's stupid attitudes to piercings and tatts, perhaps, which I am now suffering for? smiley - winkeye)


Deprogramming children

Post 1313

GTBacchus

Welcome, Jose! smiley - ok

I've added you, as Chair of Imperial Deafness, to the FFFF Board of Directors Roster. Let it be hereby known, verily, etc....

Have a smiley - stiffdrink.


GTB


Deprogramming children

Post 1314

Gone again

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Wow! Someone who respects clothing! I'll bet you know where your towel is, then? smiley - winkeye Welcome, Jose! smiley - oksmiley - biggrin

Mandragora: what's a "tatt". smiley - huh [Sorry for being ignorant. smiley - winkeye]

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Deprogramming children

Post 1315

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

I'm not proposing that you don't give your children any input regarding beliefs, just that you give them tools appropriate to their age that lets them make decisions they are ready for. You have to teach them those so they can learn about religion (from you or from other sources) with a sense of perspective instead of as received wisdom. If your family is religious you can happily include your children in whatever rituals you have as long as you stress that it is a choice to undertake them.

Don't tell them: "There is a God that looks down on us all and will punish you if you steal", say: "Your father and I believe that God exists nad watches all we do".

Don't tell them: "Some people believe there is an all-powerful God, but it isn't true", say: "Some people believe there is an all-powerful God, but I don't".

Whether or not you follow your parents' beliefs probably depends a great deal on how much you respect your parents; and you are more likely to respect them if they treat you as an adult (as far as possible) with respect to faith.

I'm not saying that single-religion upbringings (even if their quite closed) stop someone from thinking for themselves, just that it makes it more difficult. It's preferable to try and enable children to make their own decisions when they are ready, and that is (IMO) a better way to discharge your duty as a parent.

Children are not possessions. You have no right to determine every aspect of their lives, including what religion they follow. As minors they are frequently not capable of sensible self-determination, which is where the parents' have to step in to protect them. However, this can easily be taken too far. Where you draw the line is subjective.

The kind of severe isolation I'm talking about is extremely rare in the UK or even the USA, where different religions are practices openly and their influences are visible in daily life. It's in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that this isolation is at dangerous levels.

The incident about the paranormal book highlights one problem: Many religious people have a fortress mentality when it comes to outside influences, particularly where their children are concerned. By the same token that no just government fears criticism, no just religion should fear competitors.

This is the heart of the matter: promoting your religion to your children is acceptable, screening them from any outside influences and ideas (by getting evolution off the syllabus, mocking other faith systems or opposing comparative religion in schools) is not.


Deprogramming children

Post 1316

deackie

There was a very positive aspect of my religious upbringing and that was the strong sense of community that is harder to find in secular society. From a baby I was surrounded by other children and adults and spent a lot of time with them. I think I had an experience that many people don't have the chance of. I had no problem starting school, I was used to being with people, and I never had any problems relating to others as I had been very well socialised. If I hadn't been a member of a church my social activities would have been very limited as I was a member of various youth groups, choirs, drama groups, Bible groups. I'm not suggesting that we should encourage religion so that community can survive, I'd like to see secular society organising similar groups and activities. I think it's a shame that children miss out.


Deprogramming children

Post 1317

Gone again

OK, since you aren't listening, Queex, I'll don my parent's hat. smiley - elf [A Sorting Hat would've been better, but there isn't a smiley for one. smiley - blue Yet. smiley - smiley]

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I already know your opinions on how things ought to be in an ideal world - possibly your ideal rather than mine - and I respect them as such. However:

I wonder how and why you gained the right to suggest how I should bring up my children. Please enlighten me.

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Deprogramming children

Post 1318

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

*Everyone* has the right to suggest how to bring up your children. It's just that no individual has the right to force you to bring up your children a certain way.

If no-one has the right to make *suggestions* on how to bring up your children then where does that leave Dr. Spock?


Deprogramming children

Post 1319

Gone again

*Suggestions*? smiley - winkeye

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They're just from one note. I could go back through the others and find enough to fill a wheelbarrow! smiley - biggrin

Methinks I hear the hangover anger and resentment of a newly-fledged adult, who has yet to appreciate exactly what it is to be a parent. For example:

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Actually, you do (at least at the start). It's not only your right but your duty too. Such is the privilege and burden of parenthood.

You let go of them just as fast as is safe, knowing that they will feel your pace is FAR TOO SLOW, and resent it just as we all did. smiley - winkeye You console yourself in the knowledge that they'll understand when they become parents themselves, if not before. smiley - biggrin

Listen to deackie, if not to me; she understands. smiley - ok

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Deprogramming children

Post 1320

deackie

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And it's the right, duty or role of children to push all boundaries set down for them to see how far they can stretch the rules and what will happen if they break. Within a safe environment they make their own mistakes and learn how to do things better.

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Oh heck! Does this mean I've become old and responsible? When did this happen? smiley - yikes It won't be long until I start complaining about modern music and the behaviour of teenagers on buses, and choosing shoes based on their comfort... Oh, I already do. Help!


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