h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is just another question that can't be answered, just used to jive up a big of conversation.

Are we over-sentimental about animals?

Since we're here, why hasn't anyone brought up the next logical question?? :

Should abortion be legal?

Hmm... Anywho...

Everyone has their own opinions, but as long as people keep eating meat, or living off the profits from the exploitation of animals (by profits I don't necessarily meen money, but the knowledge attained, or a product that comes to being because of the exploitation), people will always have differring opinions, some more radical then others.

Do I personally eat meat? Yes, only tuna though (I have no taste for others, nor do I condemn people for eating them). However, I am entirely against the sort of attitude that some people have, of how utterly wrong it is to kill certain animals. God, where is the italic button?? ?? That in itself is totally just out there- it infuriates me. How can you reason killing a cow over a crow over a cricket over a cornflower?? They are all forms of killing, and that's something we just have to come to grips with, as a society. We've done it for centuries, and sure, the justification may not always be there in people's eyes, but, again, that is something that needs to be addressed.

Whale killing - you're killing off defenseless *at times* animals for the use of their oil/blubber/skin; many species are, or are very near to, extinct.

Tuna- killing off great masses without reflection on the propigation of the species *which many say is dwindling fast, since attempts to breed in captivity have failed.

Cows- breeding the cows for killing, or a life of constant work *milking, etc* , or worse yet *to some*, to be killed off for veal. We have domesticated an animal and made it to serve as one of our fundemental sources of, well: food, from butchering (just about every part you can think of, including hooves), to milking (I'm sure there's a proper term to this) for cheese, milk, yogurt, cream, fertilization, clothing (suede, anyone?)... The life of a cow is unthinkable to many, with good reasoning; however, with so many industries counting on it, and having such ties with human existance, it is doubtful that anything will ever come of this situation.

Dolphins- dolphins caught while fishing for tuna are often martyred, for being mammals, having intelligence. How can humans effectively measure intelligence of animals? The only way we can measure intelligence is to either compare it to human intelligence, or to that of another animal - but what is that really proving? Every creature that survives in nature surely must have some intelligence in them, even if it is just 'instinct' . Which brings up another great issue: can animals feel? That is the most infuriating question that can ever be brought up! If you had a steel bullet raging through your body, and you were crying out in agony, would you call it instinct, or would you say 'That bloody f***ing hurt!' ?? Convincing yourself that the animals can't feel the pain, or aren't going to remember the pain is a cheap, cheap way to dilude yourself into justifying the death of animals.

Those are the first two that came into mind, showing some examples of stigma surrounding them (along with some personal beliefs)...

Emotionally, however... well, that is where it all goes downhill... Some people see horses as a noble, dignified animal, serving man as willingly as any dog; go to France, order something you can't pronounce, and you'll most likely end up eating horsemeat. That about sums it up for me.

Personally, I would grieve 1000 times more for a cat run over by a driver than a driver hitting a telephone poll after running over a cat. But that's me. We have emotional attachments to hundreds of things, from our sweaters, to our houses, our cars, to our animals. We take these animals into our homes, feed them, bathe them, give them medicine, take care of them when they are ill, or ending their lives. Obviously, that much time and devotion is going to end up with a larger emotional attachment then say, oh, your favorite sweater that Aunt Madge sent you.

I've ranted enough, and this probably won't make a lot of sense (it is now 2.50 in the morning), but I think I've said my piece/peace

I have a vegan freind that insist on lecturing me on a regular schedule about the evils of meat. I like beef I like pork I like chicken... I am not going to stop eating a crop. I am not a cruel man in my own view, but I do not see a problem with eating farm animals. I also do not have a problem wiht people eating Bald Eagles if that is their choice. Sara, my vegan friend is trying to help me understand her cause. I have no quarell with that. But the vehemence with which she pursues the topic is disturbing. I understand fighting for your rights. I do that in small ways every day. But to accept an invitation to a BBQ just to be able to tell people of the evils of eating meat is beyond my mind. I accept her decision not to partake of meat as it is uniformly cruel and disgusting, but I do not want to hear the PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, not our beloved italic) propaganda about the conditions of farm animals bred for food. I used to live on a very small farm and I know that my cat has better accomidations than did our crop of chickens. But those birds were just that... A crop. They were meant for food. If every one comes to the idea of veganisim tonight what will it change. The animals are still there and they will not be freed by PETA extremeists to wander the streets without fear of being consumed.

Sorry for the rant above. This was written while I was fairly p****d...

Marv

At the end of the day, we are in the situation we are with regards to animals as food and/or pets because this is evolution.
It has always been a case of 'Survivial of the fittest'. From early neanderthals up to modern man, we have learnt how to adapt to the surroundings, to survive, make the best of what is to hand. As our intelligence grows so we find better ways of using the facilities and faculties we possess. Would a caveman be concerned whether a deer felt pain when it was killed, probably not, but if he did, then he might try and put the beast out of it's misery in a humane way.

Animals as pets stems from using animals such as cats and dogs as working animals, to help man in his continual hunt for food.
Cats were used in ancient Egypt to help hunt and trap birds.
The wolf was tamed and used to help hunters, hence our modern day dog.
You look at any farming community and you will find dogs are still used as working animals, and very rarely as pets.

Horses, cattle, bulls, all trapped and tamed and domesticated because as man became more intelligent so he realised he could benefit from having these creatures under his control, to help plough a field, to help cover lasrge distances faster, to have a ready source of milk and meat to hand.

Unfortunately with increased intelligence comes philosophy, morals and rights. Just as people have no real 'rights' to a piece of land, yet still it is bought and sold to individuals, man hasno real 'right' to use animals the way we do, or conversly animals have no real 'rights' either, the only rights we all have are to survive.
Unfortunaletly sooner or later, so greater force will take that right away, be it man, death or some other force.

If somebody can prove to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that I can survive without eating any meat or dairy product, and without any leather goods, then i will readjust my thinking, but I will not stop using said products.

As was mentioned, you cannot give human feelings to an animal, we are completely different species. We think differently, we see differently, we hear, taste, smell and touch differently, all with different results, and different interpretations of the results.

Are we too sentimental about animals? Pets, yes but that's what they are, to be petted and loved, a companion. To animals in general? Back to survival of the fittest i'm afraid.
As Sporky said, there is no 'right' answer, we do what we do because it is in our nature and breeding. The question should be 'Are we doing the right things to animals in our care?' or 'Are we overworking our resources to be able to earn a living and put a meal on the table at the end of the day?'

Marv, you might appreciate this. When I was in college, the topic of vegetarianism came up in one of my classes. Several people in this class were vegans. I mentioned that I didn't eat meat, but that I did eat dairy products. The teacher ran through a list of foods (poultry, fish, ect.) that I thought were obviously meat, and finally I said, "No, I don't like any of them." The vegans looked at me as if I had sprouted a second head. Not *like* meat? They didn't eat it, but they adored it. (Perhaps your friend is secretly inhaling the aromas at those BBQs.)

Please allow me to partially repeat myself. *belches* I mean repeat an earlier posting from a forum within this topic to respond to Marv and B17's postings.

I'm a vegan (since 1981) for the same reasons as most (ethics) but argue that I have the ability and opportunity to make the decision as far as possible, not to cause the death or exploitation of any living animal.

However, I confess that if I was stranded on a desert island and the only chance of survival was by eating another living being (what ever the species), I would do so.

*Eyes her fellow researchers and licks her lips menacingly whilst sharpening her knife*

My husband chooses to eat meat because he would go out and kill it himself (and has done in the past). My son also eats meat because he is autistic and is unable to understand the principles or differences between my hubby's diet and my own. However, my 13-year-old daughter is a vegan from birth and has chosen to stay so.

When I do purchase meat/fish/eggs for my hubby and son, as far as I can afford and is possible, I buy from RSPCA monitored, organic, free-range products.

We are fortunate that we live in a culture where we have the ability and variety of food to choose to be vegan (or not). Others in third world countries are not so fortunate.

Mind you, if the Western World in feeding their livestock to produce meat and dairy products didn't squander tonnes of grain, then perhaps there would be a lot more food to go around the rest of the world.

Oh, and Babel17. My daughter has been raised a vegan is an 90 above the centile on growth charts, is 5 ft. 7 ins. and has a size 7 shoe at age 13. See? It is possible to survive on a vegan diet! I mean I've been a vegan for years and there's nothing at all wrong with me (that a frontal lobotomy wouldn't cure!).

Point taken Gwennie.
I should have remembered you when i wrote what I did.
*wonders whether a frontal lobotomy might do him some good, or was that a bootle in front of me? *

*Smacks Babel17 around the back of his head*

(For the purposes of any moderator reading this it was an affectionate and fun-filled smack!)

How could you possible forget about ME OF ALL PEOPLE?????

*suitably chastised*
Won't happen again. promise.

Harumph! I'll let you off then! (Just this once mind - next time it'll be unspeakable torture - or at least being forced to eat one of my peanut butter and mashed banana sandwiches!)

I can see the point of ethics keeping one from eating meat. Certain people who are vegan are that way not because of ethics, but to be politicily annoying. They preach about how people were never meant to eat meat that we are not able to digest it properly and that our canine teeth are there only to rip through tough carrots. Keeping religion out of it (yet another can o worms alltogether) they are saying that humans are not evolved from whatever animal. I am of the opinion that I like what I eat so I do. By the way, I was at a party with the aformentioned Sara this weekend. It seems she is no longer tottally vegan. Gwennie, I am glad that you are able to keep you family happy with the differing diets. Now I am going to tear apart some defenseless salad I think

Marv

i haven't thoroughly read all the other things said..but i'll just add my two cents and see what happens coincidentally, i've been thinking about the whole meat eating thing as i suddenly realize almost all of my friends are vegetarians or vegans (me, i eat everything ). i think it's all good that they do what they do...but as mentioned obsessive behavior can be a little irksome...for the time being i think we should just go with the flow of the evolution of society, because more and more people are not eating meat (and not eating meat and fighting for animals rights are kind of different i think anyway..because say whales are different from cows) as well as more people becoming aware and conscience of the environment which is very good so go and adopt a whale, an acre of the rainforest or something (i'm planning on doing that sometime soon, btw any suggestions on what to 'adopt'?)

Well, I know of a 13-year-old, vegan teenage mutant sulk-a-lot who is up for adoption right this minute if you're interested Researcher 170509!

*Winks and wonders whether she'll have to throw in her daughter's Playstation games to seal the bargain*

Couple of sensible points there R170509.

Gwennie, it depends on whether you're throwing in the Playstation too As long as I don't have to eat the banana & Peanut butter sandwich!

Interesting to note, Marv, that your 'friend' who preached at you (compared with preaching to you ) isn't quite as 'holier than thou' that she made herself out to be.

*chuckles* hehe, hey i'm 14, just turned 14 though (3 months ago is "just") so anyway i feel pretty thirteen-y myself..haha

i think i might adopt a...rainforest, they don't sulk right? and fuzzy rainforest animals are soooo cute *thinks of tarsiers*

Hey R170509, if you hit the 'Preference' Button, you can give yourself a name, and if you hit the 'Edit' button, you can put something on your page, then I can come and say 'Hi'

I don't know... it seems to me that many rainforests sulk a bit, now and again

I've got a forest living just down the road that's positively suicidal at the moment!

Sorry about trying to foist my daughter on you 170509! It was worth a try, hey? Why not do as Babel suggested and get yourself a name?

here i am..left as just a number came back as the spore <-- does html work here?

anyway, it seems that this forum has digressed from the original topic...but ohh well

They always do...

Back on topic - no messin' about. Got a couple of little points. These are not disagreements, just points.

Sporkulious E. In your post that started this thread you said "How can you reason killing a cow over a crow over a cricket over a cornflower?? They are all forms of killing". Well, quite right but one thing you might like to consider is that we empathise with those who feel as we feel. We are mammals and so are cows, sheep and pigs. We have a similar nervous system to theirs, that evolved under similar conditions to serve the same purpose. We know they must sense pain in a very similar way to the way we do. More broadly, we are animals. So are crows and crickets. There is every reason to believe that crows will feel pain as we do. Their nervous system is similar. Insects will make every effort to avoid pain and damage but they are very different to mammals like us, so we can only guess how they sense pain. Plants are entirely different from us. They are rooted to the spot. They won't have the sort of nervous system that's wired for fight or flight. Their strategies for survival are quite different. Some plants produce poisons and some grow and regenerate very quickly. Pain would serve no useful purpose for plants as they would be unable to respond by withdrawing from the (for example) sheep or leaf-cutter ants, munching on them.

Marv. Sorry to repeat this tired old argument if you've heard it before but, well, I just feel I must. You said "But those birds were just that... A crop. They were meant for food. If every one comes to the idea of veganisim tonight what will it change. The animals are still there and they will not be freed by PETA extremeists to wander the streets without fear of being consumed". Some time ago (maybe even today) humans were bred as slaves. The fact that they were bred as slaves didn't diminish their feelings in the least and it also didn't make it ok for them to be slaves. Same with things like battery chickens. They're not bred without nerves or instincts. They'll no doubt feel whatever their wild ancestors felt. If everyone turned vege overnight all those domesticated "crop" animals might perish over time because they won't be suited to life as wild animals. But at least billions of animals (their potential offspring) will be spared the misery in the future.

Babel-17, you said "As our intelligence grows so we find better ways of using the facilities and faculties we possess". There seems to be considerable evidence that we haven't got any more intelligent for many thousands of years. We've just accumulated more knowledge and the wherewithal to store it and pass it on.