h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Looking at Country Sports, particularly hunting, there is no reason why they can be regarded as 'cruel' unless you regard nature itself as cruel! I find it wrong when my cousin think's lions are cruel when they hunt Gazelle on the TV! The facts are, that hunting is now firmly established as a factor in the food chain - it acts as a SELCTIVE control on population and a limit on disease (by catching weak and ill animals) - Natural Selection.

The problem with animals is that people add emotion to a subject which must be looked at from a distance and not at each individual case! The culling of a carefully controlled number of animals to ensure a stable and healthy population is important and neccessary to the natural world.

As a farmers son, i believe that the people who've lived and worked in Rural Britain all there lives should be the one's who decide the future of Country Sports, and not out-of-touch politician's in Westminster!

I agree with you for the most part. The sad fact is that a deer who is hunted and killed has likely had a better life than the cow whose meat you ate at McDonalds. The deer has lived a free life, eaten whatever food it prefers, and likely had a longer lifespan than the cow.

I only disagree when we are talking about trophy hunters who kill for prestige or hobby, and do not eat the meat from the animals they kill. Hunters who kill purely for sport can be dangerous because they often have little respect for the natural balance between predators and prey. I particularly dislike hunters who seek novelty prey, who kill exotic or endangered species simply so they can brag about it to their friends. But I realize this does not describe most hunters.

I think that the point is that people shouldn't gain any pleasure from drawing out the death.
If you need to cull dear, or get foxes off your land, then shoot them.
foxes are regularly transported in for a hunt, so the culling argument holds no water there.
Hunting with dogs is just barbarity, and needlesly cruel.

wide

Breeding, transporting and feeding foxes is completely illegal and any hunt that tries this is fined substantually. I go hunting most weekends, not because I enjoy killing things, but because I like riding my horse out with my mates arounds otherwise unavilable land, while at the same time helping the farmer and the rural community.

The governments own report - the Burns Inquiry - found that shooting and trapping were never better for animal welfare than hunting!

What you say about wild mammals is true. A hunted species such as Foxes, Deer and Hare probably live the best life amongst most animals, they are encourage to breed and their population are maintained and managed by the hunts. They live free in the countryside and can eat what they like and go where they like and their final death is quick, short and RELATIVELY delievers the least pain!

The pleasure of hunting comes from enjoying the countryside and the riding, not the kill. It adds thousands to a struggling rural community and offers over 6,000 jobs. And, is not crueler than any other method of control (as the government Burns Inquiry tells)!

Wide Inside, after that BLANKET statement you made, I would Like to see some evidence to back it up.

I would like to know why some animal sports are considered cruel and have been (rightly) outlawed such as badger baiting, dog fighting etc. while hunting is not. Is this a class issue?

Bascally Hunting serves a purpose and in no way can be compared to Badger Baiting, Cock fighting, dog Fighting etc.

How can you compare them? The fact that one is Pest Control and the others Sadistic Enjoyment? Mingle the two if you wish but I find it laughable.

And Hunting is not cruel, if you look at the Burns report (which has been accepted by all sides, but some how the Meaning gets misinterepted). Burns says that Hunting is no more or no less cruel than other Pest Control Methods, such as shooting. Comparing it to Snaring (Perhaps the most common method of Pest Control) Hunting isnt cruel at all. Also even though on a whole Hunting was Less Efficent in most areas, in some areas, (the Highlands and in Wales) Hunting was alot more effective. Note that most shooting is done by Gun Packs.

I have repeatedly tried but will never be able to understand how killing any animal for sport can bring pleasure to anyone and think that people that do so must be mentally deranged.

I have lived in the countryside for years and have enjoyed riding horses with groups of friends without having to hunt something to gain pleasure.

You can argue until you're blue in the face with me, but I will never be able to see your side of the argument. If a fox is a pest and kills your chickens, by all means shoot it but why do you have to hunt it with hounds? And when was the last time a deer killed chickens? If they need to be culled, then employ professional marksmen to go out and shoot them, not chase them across the countryside with a pack of baying hounds.

FAO "The Whippy"
There have been substantiated instances, as recently reported in the British national press where a hunt was importing foxes for the hunt, so I think that Wide Inside's "blanket statement" is therefore proven.

Your arguments are rubbish. I dont really care whether you like going hunting or not! Some people like watching trains at stations, some like colecting small sticky bits of paper off the front of letters - not something I find enjoyable but i can accept!

People in the Countryside generally approve of hunting because:

All the animals culled by hunting have to be culled whether hunting in banned or not.
Hunting is SELCTIVE - i.e it culls the weakest and diseased animals whilst leaving the healthy to breed (Darwin - Natural Selection)
I'd rather i was caught by a pack of hounds in seconds after a 5/10 minute run rather that dying over 20 hours with a broken leg so i cant hunt, or a poor-shot that has shattered my jaw and makes me unable to eat!
Hunting has a close-season. No hunting takes place during the mating season or when cubs are young!
Early season hunting helps to spread young cubs around the land so they dont concentrate in one place!
Hunting provides hundreds of job in a struggling rural economy!
Foxes are known for killing lambs, chickens, etc - and ENJOY the kill, they will kill 20 chickens and only take 1!
Hunting provides a service to farmers - carcass removal, fences, gates, hedges, walls, etc.
Hunting provides a service to society - motorway and railway fences, social functions, etc.
Hunts conserve, hedges, woods, forests, etc.
Other methods are very costly: Proffesional Marksman, Posion, etc, and farmers simply cant afford to pay it!

Some thinks people forget:

You see a fox being "ripped apart" on RSPCA adverts - remember its dead by this time!
Do you wonder why the RSPCA spends money on newspaper advers when it is a charity?
Do you think the £1 million donation by IFAW (to the Labour Party) in 1997 has anything to do with party policy?

Also: importing, feeding or caring foxes is illegal amongst hunt rules and should rightly be banned.

The reason i tend towards the "Middle Way" is so there is a body to stop this!

As a member of the Beaufort Hunt, you may have seen the "fox feeding scandal" on the news, what they dont tell you is that the vixen of those cubs had been killed on the road and the cubs were starving to death! Shall we leave them next time?

Moment to remember: The League Against Cruel Sports; in the mid-90's several directors resigned after concluding that the alternative to hunting would be MORE CRUEL to the animals! - These people studied this for their job - they should know!

I am intregued here. for once some people are putting good arguments up for hunting. As a city dweller I am relatively ignorant as to teh true issues in hunting, probably because all I hear is from anti-hunting groups. I actually find thsi a bias by the TV companies. Anti-Hunt peopel are usually seen as reasonable if not slightly scruffy people who argue well while pro-hunt people are alwyas over-stuffed upper-class idiots. I'm finally glad to hear teh other side of teh story and get clear of the steryotypes. I also feel that All teh news agencys deserve a slap for their obviously biased representation of teh issue.

Akershaker, I've heard all these arguments before and they're weak and won't convince the majority of the populace of the UK, including myself. Why couldn't your hunt use an aniseed trail to enjoy them selves? Also, you still haven't explained exactly what you feel when you see the fox/stag/hare/pheasant/grouse/rabbit killed. Why do you enjoy it so? What is this blood lust thing that I just don't seem to possess or understand?

Perhaps you could "enlighten" me.

I'll 'Enlighten' you Gwennie.

First off Do you condemn the entire Hunting Fraternity for the actions of a Minority?

Ok do that.

A few seasons ago a elderly man was pulled off his horse and beaten to unconcious with an Iron bar. He spent 3 weeks in intestive care. A friend of mine, a Huntsman as it happened was assaulted by 3 people whilst exercising his hounds.

So you're a violent Anti who cant put together a coherent and correct arguement. Correct? I will leave YOU to decide.

Now to the jist of you're arguement. Since you have Obvisously read the Burns report, you should know how many hunts would be able to find work in Drag hunts. less than 10% and Most wouldnt be able to survive anyway.

Secondly Hunting doesnt happen without the consent of Landownewrs. They feel there is a need for Foxes, Hares and Mink to be killed. If they didnt do this, then they would be shot (with a 12 bore mark you, not the weapon of choice for an instanteous Kill) Or snared. Well whose cruel now? The Hunt provides a service. The Hunt is the Master, Huntsman and commitee. The people who help finace the Hunt are the followers. Either mounted or on Foot. These usually come out for a good ride, or to see Hounds Hunt. I find it good fun. Not becuase a Hare gets killed, becuase I'm there scaring the slit out of myself, where I wouldnt be able to.

Right and now you're refusal to listen or even change you're mind.This marks me as a person who either lacks the intelligence to form their own opinions, by basing them on the Facts (which are PLAIN to see in the Burns report) and simply shouting with the loudest crowd. Therefore I am not going to respond to you. Believe it or not though I am a reformed Anti Hunt suppporter.

"Even in a minority of one, what is right is right" - Mahatma Ghandi (Probably slightly wrong in quoted, but the jist is there).

I dont have Blood Lust. And errrm I hate to tell you this, but Grouse, Pheasant, rabbit, Partrigdes, Cute furry liddle widdle odders, the Domestic Cat (These are nice animals aren't they? Yeah the cruelest too), the furry terrier, are NOT hunted. This should be taken up elsewhere other than hunting.

I dont really care what you think. I really dont. I used to go onto the British Horse Society Hunting debate Board (which is the best btw, with good moderation), but the amount I went over countless arguements that ran in circles was in the triple figures. I stopped becuase it was getting very boring.

But I will again refer you to the main point of the Burns Inquiry, it was not that Hunting was Determental to the Quarry's health (As it is , as a Successful hunt results in a Kill duh...) but that Hunting is no more cruel than other methods in use. Including the vaunted haemorraghe of the .223 variety, and considering that nature of the hunt considerably less cruel than Snares and Gassing. Perhaps if you rechanneled your energies you might have a case against other field sports. Just becuase the Majority agrees with you isnt enough. The Majority of Nazi Germany Argeed with the Persucution of the Jews, the Majority of America Argeed with the Persucution of Minoritys. Hell done south the KKK might as well have been a Political Party FGS.

Gwennie to use a time honoured phrase coined by Millions, "You are the weakest link, Goodbye".

I think that to compare the campaign against hunting to the persecution of Jews by the Nazis or the persecution of blacks by the Ku Klux Klan is insulting. Notwithstanding the violence of some anti-hunting campaigners - and there have been incidents on both sides - this is simply not in the same league. Criminal activity is criminal activity, and people who commit assault should suffer the rigours of the law.

I am not in favour of field sports - and I am as entitled to believe that as those who support hunting are entitled to their beliefs, but I do not wish any harm to hunt supporters - I just want them not to do it. And we do live in a democracy - if you wish to sustain field sports then continue to campaign and try to persuade the majority of the right of your case - that's what democracy is. But if you lose the argument, then you lose the argument.

There are many things which have happened over the years which I disagree with profoundly - I was furious at the privatisation of the railways, to pick something a Conservative government enacted. I was disgusted at the imposition of university tuition fees, to pick something a Labour government enacted. But these things are decided by a vote in Parliament - if you don't like it then you campaign, and you vote for somebody you do like, and you lobby your MP - they always reply. You can stand for parliament yourself, if you feel strongly enough and you have the support. It's a far from perfect system, but it's the best one we've got.

But please don't resort to insulting your opponents - that's a cop out.

I have never resorted to violence in any form and do not condone such actions that have occurred (whether provoked or not) from either faction.

If shooting animals is a poorer option to hunting on the grounds that they may suffer a lingering death from their injuries, are you suggesting that the breeding and release of pheasants specifically for the shoot should also be banned? In that case should all shooting as a field "sport" be banned on these grounds?

You have mistakenly assumed that I endow all animals with a "fluffy bunny" syndrome and this is not true. I am a realist.

Don't be irrational and please don't patronise me. Of course I wouldn't prefer snaring. I would prefer a coherent or educated argument without resorting to personal insults and that my previous posting's question be answered.

Why do you obtain enjoyment from animals and what it is you feel whilst killing something? Are you afraid to expose your baser instincts to public view?

Captain Kebab, the comparison between human rights and animals rights is only 'insulting' because you either do not understand the complexities of ethics or you have an emotional reponse that does not take into consideration the validity of the argument, i.e. it is irrational.

Akershaker, may I ask you what objections you would have to, say myself and a group of friends hunting you and your colleagues for pleasure, food, exercise or whatever reason. I don't mean in terms of law. You can change law to suit whatever purposes you like.

Rather, why should I not section a category of humans off and disregard their welfare when you are quite happy with applying the same technique to other creatures.

In other words, what precisely is it about all non-humans that enables you impose adversity upon them, but cannot apply to subsections of the human species?

I was not comparing the Hunting issue with Persuction (not the Final Solution either) of the Jews, or the KKK. The Point what I was making is that these actions had a Vast majority in support of these actions. They werent right.

Secondly, This has tunred into an arguement about Hunting, not shooting. I feel that shooting has a much greater case for being banned. However its not on the Cards. Micheal Foster is an Angler. Double standards?

I notice that you have not even answered any my points, and I Patronised you, becuase you Patronised us. Dont like it?

I didnt insult you. My Post might have been hostile, but it usually are to an Ingorant Person who passes their views off as Gospell.

You previous posting has been answered. I also pointed out what other methods are in use, and I'm wondering why you wont campagin to ban them? You say you wouldnt like such things, yet you dont realised what will happen if Hunting is Banned.

I dont enjoy an Animal being Killed. I root for the Hare believe me. I go out for a good ride which I wouldnt get otherwise. I have said this in the above post. I have answered all you're questions yet you deny that I have? Why is that? I also know that its the best way for an Animal to be culled.

I would like you to get a decent arguement. You would get ripped to Pieces in a Dedicated debate Forum. Read the Burns report. The facts are there.

Erm, The Whippy, you seem to be (a) replying to a post that was not directed to you and (b) attributing the post to somebody who did not write it.

I'm an elderly ex-sab (completely non-violent, unlike some of the hunters and hunt followers). I haven't really got involved in this thread up to now because, well, as someone further up the thread said - we've thrown these arguments at each other so many times we're sick of hearing them. But, on second thoughts, I'll throw my two penn'th into a new mix and see if something different emerges.

I would question whether foxes actually require control. I suggest this is just a conventional wisdom fostered by hunters and hunt sympathisers. I live in the country and I can tell you that:

1) The hunters in this area maintain coverts to encourage foxes to breed. Is that a sign that we have a plague of foxes?

2) I, personally, have witnessed a family of 5 foxes (ma, pa & 3 cubs) trotting through a field of sheep with lambs and the sheep couldn't even be bothered to get out of the way. Is that a sign that foxes are a danger to healthy lambs?

3) That same family had been poisoned within a week of their trip across the field of sheep, by the people who breed pheasants in neighbouring fields. They also snare and poison neighbourhood cats, squirrels and birds of prey - anything in fact, that might compete with the pheasants for food or regard the pheasants as food. The foxes were living in a quarry and from what we were told by the quarry men who work there, the foxes were living on rabbits. We actually DID have a plague of rabbits here so the foxes were doing valuable work until the poison killed them. That problem was eliminated a bit later in the year by reinfecting the rabbits with myxomatosis. Ghastly disease! If I were rabbit, I'm sure I'd rather be taken out quickly and cleanly by the fox.

4) The farmer who farms the land adjacent to where I live is a tenant farmer. He's made it clear to me but would never say publicly because his landlords are the "landed gentry", who are in a position to prevent him from making a living, that he loathes and despises the hunt. They serve no useful purpose and damage fields and fences that he is then left to repair - whatever they say. And what they say is that they clear up their mess when they've finished. I've watched while they've galloped all over a field that this farmer has just spent the whole morning ploughing - he's had to go over it again.

5) You might mention "cubbing". Again, I have personally witnessed this. At the beginning of the hunting season (October), in order to train the young hounds who haven't hunted before, they go cubbing to teach the young dogs to hunt. This is how it's done: The hunt (terrier men when I witnessed the spectacle) knows in advance where the earths with cubs are located. They block off the entrance before the hunt arrives. When the pack is all assembled, ready for the kill, a huntsman stands with his foot over the opening to the earth and drags out one cub at a time and throws it to the pack who then tear it to pieces. That's how the young hounds learn their craft.

6) When I've engaged in conversation with hunters, they often say things like "we hardly ever catch one you know, we just love the chase". This is actually not that far from the truth. More foxes are killed on the roads and by disease than are ever killed by hunts, so hunts certainly wouldn't be an effective method of fox control IF foxes needed to be controlled. The sab group I belonged to volunteered to organise drag hunts for every hunt we ever sabbed, but we were never taken up on our offer. They told us we couldn't possibly make it enough fun. The foxes took them into far more hair-raising situations than a bunch of wusses like our group would ever do.