h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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A somwhat unfair question, but that has to asked:
Suppose you know there is a suicide bomber ready to blow a busload of civilians within the next 48 hours. You have detained the bomb maker, a man of fanatical faith. He is the only one that knows the whereabouts of the bomber. How to you get him to cooperate with you? Remember: the fate of dozens of innocents depends on you!
This is not a hypothetical question. This is what the Shin-Bet had to deal with in the bombing of bus 26 in August 1995.

*appauled at what she has read*
and hopes she will never be in that situation.

Remind me, why did he make the bomb? Was it something to do with his family being forcably driven from their homes, his village being occupied, being run out of the country that his family had lived in for generations, and standing up to a regimen that has illegally (according to the UN) held territory that they illegally seized (according to the UN) in 1962, and had no valid claim on in the first place.

Was it because the country that had destroyed his homeland and traditional way of life had an army funded from around the world and that he had no other way to stand up to them.

Torture has never been an effective way of obtaining information, especially from those fanatical about their cause and itt cannot be justified. Random bombings are equally unjustifiable but are sometimes the only way of making a point to, richer, more powerful forces who have international support for the illegal relocation of an ethnically different group of people.

To answer your question; "Suppose you know there is a suicide bomber ready to blow a busload of civilians within the next 48 hours. You have detained the bomb maker, a man of fanatical faith. He is the only one that knows the whereabouts of the bomber. How to you get him to cooperate with you? Remember: the fate of dozens of innocents depends on you!"
If someone I knew would be on the bus then I would probably torture him, and if he refused to reveal the information I would undoubtedly execute him. Even if I had the wrong person just knowing I had one of the "enemy" in my hands would make me excercise revenge.

Fortunatly, I don't make the rules or I would also have re-introduced the death penalty for murder, rape and peadophilia, and would probably have been responsable for the death of innocent people.

If I was feeling more rational I would try to deal with the reasons that caused the attack in the first place.

Torturing someone who is guilty is not acceptable, if you have someone who is wrongly accuced then it is sickening. Torture presumes guilt against the evidence. Torture as punishment is also not any more acceptable.

It's easy to take a moral high ground when you don't have anything personally at stake. But ask yourself what kind of person you'd have to be to torture someone; to hear them scream; to be covered in their blood, vomit, faeces... What values would you be protecting by behaving that way?

These are terrible questions that strike at the heart of our concepts of morality, decency, humanity. Naturally, I want to protect my family, my friends, and my way of life; but I think that the pall of horror that you would cast over everything you love by descending to that level, proving to yourself that you are capable of such remorseless cruelty, would taint your life (and the lives of those you love) forever. It wouldn't be worth it, however you look at it. Would I do it? I don't know. I would like to think not.

JTG

"It's easy to take a moral high ground when you don't have anything personally at stake. But ask yourself what kind of person you'd have to be to torture someone; to hear them scream; to be covered in their blood, vomit, faeces... What values would you be protecting by behaving that way?"

"In a unanimous judgment, the court ruled that interrogators from the Shin Bet security service should not use practices Such as the violent shaking of detainees, tying them up in painful positions depriving them of sleep for long periods or blasting them with load music."

Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm not quite sure how the blood, vomit, and faeces would result from blasting detainees with music or depriving them of sleep. Even the first two, while more violent, don't seem to be in the same category as the kind of torture you're implying.

I'm not defending the torture. But I think we must keep in mind there are different levels of torture. I belong on some newsgroups that claim there is still torture in Israel, I'm not sure if their news is old, or if that is true. I do know that for the most part Israel doesn't have Capital Punishment (I believe they make an exception for the crime of Genocide, though the potential violators of this crime are dying of old age.) I also believe that the vast majority of their neighbors do have Capital Punishment, and perhaps torture. Israel may very well be the most humane country in its general geographical area. It doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

I also don't consider their presence there illegal, as one poster suggested. Historically, the rights to that land have gone back and forth back and forth back and forth. I hold out faith that the two groups will arrange a peace-settlement, and figure out the boundaries, and learn to coexist with one another.

Obviously my post was intended in response to the more general question of torture assumed by this thread since its inception. As for the morality of defending 'settlers' with tanks and helicopters, or the motivation for building settlements on occupied land in the first place, that is outside the purview of this forum; which should, I think, be restricted to the issue of torture.

JTG

According to the UN, the occupation of the Gaza strip by Israel *is* illegal. As was the invasion in 1962.

As for the different degrees of torture; all torture is designed to cause extreme psychological ond/or physical distress. "Among the techniqnes used were tying a prisoner to a low stool for long periods with his hands behind his back and head covered in a fetid sack." this will lead to initial discomfort and humilliation, then limbs will start to go numb, painful cramps follow and the muscles in the back may go into spasm, sometimes snapping the spine. If left in this position permanent damage will be done to all tissue in hard contact with any surface (ie handcuffs, or the stool) initally the skin but later the underlying muscle. All the while the cramps and muscle spasms get worse. These spasms will lead to prisoners biting through their tongues, vomiting and loosing control of other bodily functions.

If the circulation is cut off to part of the body (finger, whole hand, or even arm) then that part will "die" within a few hours, often less.

After the prisoner is untied the cramps and spasms will continue while they are often forced to walk or run causing greater pain.

If you have ever had a strong sensation of "pins and needles" in your legs after sitting for too long in the wrong position and found it unbearable to walk, then imagine if you had been tied into a painful position for a much greater length of time and were then forced to run througn sickening pain only to be tied up again as soon as you had finished.

There are no acceptable degrees of torture, they are all meant to bring a person to there psychological breaking point, then push then just that one step further.

Anyone who has been kept awake night after night by a crying baby knows how easily their limit can be reached, many mothers kill their own children when faced with sleep deprivation and stress. If sleep deprivation is used as a method of psychological conditioning by those who are experienced in the technique then you will begin to have full blown hallucinations after just 72 hours, when combined with dehydration and beatings the effects are devistating.

I will say, again, there are NO acceptable degrees of torture. just because we find the idea of blasting someone with loud music to keep them awake easier to live with than cutting someones leg open and scraping grooves into the thigh bone while they are strapped down and fully awake. It does not mean it is any less psychologically damaging.