h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello Gosh, Shirps and Walter

You sound like you've had a pretty good time Gosh. 'If onlys' or 'what ifs' are pretty pointless, aren't they? Although I wonder where Maria Smith is now! I tend not to do the 'if only' but do sometimes wonder how I got to where I am - where I am is wonderful so I have no complaints!

It's late Friday afternoon and the weekend beckons. I'm looking forward to a relaxing weekend with my man, a bit of gardening, some walks with the dog and a few gins and tonic. I've just started a novel lent by a friend and written by Nick Hornby called High Fidelity - so with a bit of luck will fit in a page or two of that.

Have a good weekend all.

B

I often wonder about Maria Smith too Beloved, but mostly I don't do the "what if" thing. One of my old schoolfriends retired a few years ago at the age of 40, a millionaire, but he had to go through 20 years of work which probably would have had me climbing the walls after 6 months. For a few people, "what if" can be a spur to do something, but I think that it's usually more of a spur to wallow in self pity, a very boring British characteristic, and one of the things about Britain which I couldn't put up with any longer and had to get away from.

I hope you enjoy the book and the weekend. I haven't read High Fidelity, but I've heard that it's very good. Gardening, walks, g+t's - sounds idyllic

On a grammatical note, should it be 'gins and tonic' or 'gin and tonics'? I guess either could work, like 'spoons full' or 'spoonfuls'.

Grammar: "Gin & Tonics" apparently, other person here says!!!

Hi there y'all

I thought I recognised that name: "High Fidelity" by Nick Hornby. I've just been upstairs & found it on my daughter's bookshelf - read the front cover - intriguing!!! Just for info, Beloved, next to it was another book: "Secrets about Men every Woman should Know" by Barbara De Angelis.

Don't tell me my offspring is becoming an "expert" on men - oh, heaven help us!!!

Sorry, about the uni thing, but it was the only sort of way I could explain my intellect (or lack of it)- obviously the wrong way!!!!

Gosh, I know what you mean about the Brits sitting around saying "what if" - I've been there too!!!! Unfortunately, sometimes you can't get spurred to do anything about it - commitments, circumstances, etc., prevent it. I can't believe that people in other countries don't "wallow" occasionally also though.

I just wish at present that there was some sunshine somewhere close to hand!! Don't any of you tell me about your "glorious weather", otherwise "I shan't talk to you anymore"

Not much to say tonight, so will go quickly before I just ramble. Oh, we sold 11 paintings at our art exhib. last Saturday (6 hours) - not bad going - there, something positive!!

Night night
Shirps

And just by coincidence I saw the High Fidelity film soundtrack on the shelf today whilst filing some cd's (didn't get a chance to look at it though).
No danger of any sunshine here Shirps, I believe that we're under a flash flood watch until about this time tomorrow, 90% chance of heavy showers or thunderstorms for Thanksgiving Day, which by a quirk of fate I shan't be working dang, I was really looking forward to that time and a half), although the wife is, which means that I'll have to work Christmas Day, while she'll get that one off.... hey, we don't have to go to San Antonio to see the in-laws on either occasion. RESULT!!! And even if we did have some nice weather, I wouldn't mention it if it meant you leaving us. Congratters on the exhibition btw.
I guess that people are different the world over, and the same too. Since living here and working in a shop, I've noticed that there are almost as many Americans (Texans even!) who are as shy and retiring as any Brit I ever came across, and there are no doubt a few who like to wallow too, but generally, Americans have a more positive outlook. In Britain, if you fail, you're a failure. In America, you're only a failure if you don't try again - in other words, you're not a failure until you give up. This can lead to a certain arrogance however, and an inability to deal with what is and what has happened, which in turn I think is one of the reasons Americans tend to be so litigious. If something went wrong it's someone's fault because they just didn't try hard enough. No matter that what they were trying to do was out of the realms of possibility, particularly when it comes to medicine. Americans have very high, sometimes unreasonably high, expections. And I love living here

Hello Shirps and Gosh

I somehow managed to deregister myself - my excuse is a new computer in my office as of this week.

Gosh - you have to work Christmas Day? How much business do you do? Are people more relaxed or only escaping after lunch with the family, in-laws or whatever? I sometimes wonder whether more milk, newspapers, fags etc are bought on Christmas Day as people nip out for a bit of a break - it often seems to be the most amount of time families spend with each other and that can be a bit of a culture shock. (This all sounds a bit 'blaah' so I should just add that I do enjoy Chistmas!)

What do you think of your Presidential election cum court case/s? Seems bizarre from a distance.

Congratulations on the picture sale success Shirps. Are you in the arts field? Do you paint?

I've finished 'High Fidelity'. Not bad. The main character is very self-absorbed - probably needs one of those self-help books!

A friend of mine who is English has just gone to England (from Australia) for a holiday and says the English are absorbed with money (and class). She's finding seeing her own culture from a vaguely outside perspective quite interesting, I think. Someone else made the comment that the class thing in England is so embedded that even the mail is divided into classes - I thought this was a really interesting way of looking at it!

B

Hello Beloved. Yeah, the whole class thing in Britain (I have to say that - my Welsh friend Pete gets very annoyed when I say 'England' when I mean the whole country, although in this instance, it probably does mostly mean England) is very pernicious. And yes, the post is divided into first and second class. Cricket too - the First Class Counties and the Minor Counties (American baseball is divided into Major League and Minor League), and train travel - first class and ordinary class. Long-haul air travel is divided into classes, but that's all over the world isn't it.
The British obsession with class is just one of the reasons it's been my ambition to move here to America for the past 15 years. I guess Australia is pretty egalitarian too, at least, that's the impression I get from people I know who've been there and from what I see of it on tv. Is that a correct assumption? There are parts of American society which are quite class-ridden too though, particularly in the east, and particularly in New England. I'm talking about 'Old Money' (the Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, etc,) and 'New Money' (Donald Trump). I think that once you get west of The Appalachians (and definately west of The Mississippi), class structure is pretty well non-existent. What class structure does exist here is usually based on money rather than breeding or how you speak, and I believe that the American constitution forbids American citizens to have a title. There are of course lots of Brits who would love to see an end to class, but as those in power are mostly from the upper class, and whilst there's a monarchy, that's not going to change. I'm really not sure how I feel about abolishing the monarchy. If you did get rid of the Queen, the power would still reside with the prime minister and the government, but either the PM, or a president would have to be head of state, and they'd both be bloody politicians. I don't know which is worse, that, or the current situation (Politicians the world over are generally held in such low esteem, how come they're the ones holding the reins of power? The only two politicians I'd want for British president are Tony Benn or Ken Livingstone).
The whole American presidential election.... ehh, I dunno. On one hand, I think it would be a disaster for America (and the rest of the world) if Dubya is president, and on the other, Gore and the Democrats have handled the whole thing so badly, looking like sore losers and desperate to do anything to retain power. If any of you want to see something on the subject which I found quite amusing (and then embellished a bit), mail me [email protected] and I'll send it on an attachment. It's a Powerpoint document right now, but I could scan it in and send it as a .jpg if you don't have Powerpoint.
On a lighter note, I haven't worked a Christmas day at the store yet (I started there in April), but I've been told that it's busier than one might imagine. I guess it could be people buying last minute presents, lonely people who don't have anyone else to spend the day with, people who don't celebrate Christmas, or people whose idea of Christmas day isn't Christmas dinner, opening presents, and watching tv all day. Whatever, I'll find out. We do have a small number of people who come in every day regardless, one bloke comes in every morning as we open the doors, and another comes in at least three times every day - does he have no life? Does he think that we put new cd's out every hour on the hour? There'll probably be a few people selling us cd's cos they need some cash for late presents, or they got a cd they don't like for a present and want to exchange it for one that they do. I'll let you all know on Boxing Day (which they don't have here btw)

Hiya all

Class arguments? Oh, what a discussion to open!!

The way I see it, living here in England at present, is that slowly over the years class distinction has changed from those born to it to those who have money. Unfortunately, those born to it have more manners & grace, are easy to talk to & actually are more aware of "how the other half live" than those who have money. The latter seem obnoxious, boring & are basically snobs!!

I have actually met Her Majesty the Queen, quite some years ago, and she was the most gracious, normal, well-balanced person I have ever met. However, having met some "famous" characters - they seem to think that speaking to anyone whom THEY consider beneath them, is a big bore & not worth it!

Sorry, call me old-fashioned, stuck in some sort of time warp, I don't know (I'd prefer it if you didn't label me & I was a Parliamentarian in the English Civil War Society so do realise that it was a good thing that absolute power was taken away from the monarchy - you can't choose the royal family!), but it is sad that the old hierarchy are slowly disappearing & being replaced by pop & film stars, most of whom are not educated & most seem quite selfish! At least the old system (dating back to feudal, medieval times) cared for their workers, etc.

Look at the Indian caste system - that is pretty awful, considering the women have to wear caste marks! At least England hasn't gone that far!

Enough, my fingers hurt!!

Unfortunately I don't paint at present. Since I took the part of secretary to the art society - this is my 7th year - I haven't had the time to devote to actual painting. I began learning, when I had to give up work due to ...... dare I say it? : RSI, & muscle wastage was appearing, so to keep my hands going I began painting - I'm pleased with what I've done so far, but would love to be able to have the talent & knowledge to paint what I have in my mind, instead of copying!!!!

US elections - I've sent Gosh an E attachment, which I hope he will be able to forward to you, Beloved, I look forward to his "ditty"!!

So, the wonderful American voting system hasn't worked - oh dear!!!

Basically I think all politicians are as bad as each other, dear old Cromwell would be turning in his grave!! What happened to "the good of the country"? They all seem to be out for themselves!

Hmmmmmmm, shame you have to work Christ. day, but sometimes it would "make a change". I have always wanted to go to London & help give the homeless a decentish Christmas, but "family comes first"!!

Really, I must go now - muscles are enlarging as well as stiffening fingers! - Ahhhhhhh!!

I have to agree with you about the bad manners of some of the 'new money' Shirps, but you'll often find that those are people in the entertainment business in one way or another, and to make it big in that field, you generally have to be in possession of high self esteem, an overblown sense of your own importance, and a huge ego, which is why so many of them come across as obnoxious and snobbish. Old money, on the other hand, knows that it's in a secure and familiar place (i.e., being rich and well-connected), and can afford (no pun intended) to be gracious and generous with its money and its manners. I've known or met a few of these types, and found them to be nothing like the stuck-up stereotype that is often portrayed, in fact, quite the opposite as long as you don't do a 'Del Boy' by being boorish, or by sucking up to them and fawning all over them. For me personally, Brian Johnston typified what I'm talking about. I guess he wasn't strictly upper class in that he wasn't of the nobility, but he was from a family who had been wealthy for a few generations and who were able to get him through the well trod path of Eton - Cambridge - the Guards. Simply put, he was a thoroughly nice bloke. I wrote to him once at Test Match Special and received a postcard explaining that he had lost the letter I wrote but got my address from the envelope, and enclosed a piece of paper with the autographs of the entire TMS team, plus most of the England and West Indies teams too. Apparently he answered every single letter and card he received. A few weeks later I got another card to let me know that he'd found my letter, and proceeded to answer it! So what were the circumstances of you meeting the Queen? I'm fascinated to know.
I think I'm with you on the benefits of the feudal system too - at least, as far as I know about it. Feel free to correct me on this one anybody, but I believe that it was a very patrician system, that commoners werer allowed to own a small piece of land, and that they had 'Commoner's Rights' such as pannage and tillage. It's probably much more complicated and much less romantic than it sounds, because if you weren't a freeman, the lord of the manor owned you and had utter control over your life. I would really like to learn more about those times, and about the English Civil War too, particularly The Diggers and The Levellers, and also something about the enclosures too.
I really don't mind working Christmas day - it's not the family occasion for me that it is for many others, and I get time and a half for it

Hi Shirps and Gosh

Interesting discussion!and so much to talk about haven't a hope of covering it all. I think you're right Gosh - Australia is pretty egalitarian - although as you both say money is the thing rather than class (or maybe they're similar/the same things but with different names??). What our media calls the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. I thought it was interesting to see who the organisers of the closing ceremony selected as Australian 'icons' - pop stars, models, sportsmen, entertainers (Kylie Mynogue, Elle McPherson, Greg Norman, Paul Hogan). I know it was supposed to be a fun thing but thought 'this is what we think Australia is?' So I think you have something there - entertainers are the new 'nobility', or at least the ones people seem fascinated by. Other than that it's people with money and power like Kerry Packer and Rupert Murdoch. I don't know a lot about the feudal system - only enough to know I'd have wanted to be a 'have'! - I'll need to do a bit of checking about it though.

Having said ALL that I think Australia is a great place to live - there is room to find your own bit of paradise, to have your say if you want to or to just live in your own little world. I work in the capital city of the smallest state, live 20 minutes (and 20 km)outside of it on a couple of acres so have the best of both worlds - and am thankful every day for it.

Yesterday we had five domestic ducks (belonging to the people over the road) and 17 wild ducks pop in for a visit. Just wonderful. Fed them lots of bread and watched them for ages.

RSI is a nasty thing Shirps. I've (fortunately) not had it but have known women with it. How wonderful to paint. I'm afraid I'm so bad I don't even try. I can see things in my mind but haven't a hope of getting it onto paper - so gardening is, I think, where it comes out instead. Colour, shape, feel without worrying about brushes or pencils! Your art society sounds really active - do you have many members?

Well, time to go home now. Talk to you soon. Stay well.

B

Hello Shirps, Gosh and Beloved,

Wow, it doesn't do to stay away from this forum too long! The discussion on the English class system is fascinating. My favourite class story relates to rail travel, and how originally (or thereabouts) carriages were designated first, second and third class. At some stage, the powers that be determined one of the 'classes' had to go, so they dropped SECOND class and retained first and third.

As must be fairly obvious, I was born and raised in England, and although I love the Colne Valley dearly and always will, coming to Australia was like escaping from a feudal system to one where no-one gave a tinker's damn about your breeding and you were judged on the simple criterion of what sort of person you were. Opportunities abounded. Even today that is still largely the case, although the wealthy are becoming our new 'first class' citizens. And of course, first class citizens debate amongst themselves the plutocratic pecking order of the new and old monied sets. And another little 'touch of class', at least here in Hobart, is the old school tie.

I don't profess to be an expert on the feudal era, and I agree with Beloved that from what I have learned I definitely would not have wanted to be your average medieval peasant or not so well off person, but then again, I wouldn't want to be a peasant or a not so well off person now, either. I guess the point is that being a battler is in one sense a relative thing, isn't it? To work out what a peasant's lot in life actually is means you need to compare it with something else, but that something else must be contemporary. I think this is a crucial point about history; it has to be explored in its own context, against its own values and standards. The moment someone starts judging a bygone era or event outside its own time and space, whatever the result is it is not usually going to be sound historical analysis.

But what Englishman or white Australian really knows much about class distinctions? It is, as I said, all relative. Although it will probably bring down a firestorm on my head, that is the reason I believe the well-intentioned 'sorry' debate over here is misconceived. The argument is not, in my view, about whether the present generation should say sorry to the indigenous population for the wrongs of the past, a line which divides people rather than unites them. The argument is, in my view, not even about compassion and regret for the horrendous things that human beings are capable of doing to each other, now and in the past. The argument is, in my view, misconceived because it requires the imposition of modern values and standards upon the actions of those in another time and place whose values and standards were vastly different from our own. The issue is of course, about a largely dispossessed and appallingly ill-treated people who for nearly two hundred years were regarded as a class different from any that we have spoken of in this forum - as almost less than members of the human race. No question of them travelling on a third class carriage, or entering a hotel, or going to the cinema, or travelling on a bus, or working in a decent job for decent wages. Laws were passed only in the 1960s that required employers to pay Aborigines the same wages as 'whites' for doing the same work (mind you, that is also true of women, too), or recognising them officially as Australian citizens who could vote. I understand why many think there should be a national 'sorry', but it is to a large extent a red herring, and a divisive one at that. The call should be simply for Justice: not for the past, because that is impossible, but for the present, and the future.

Hey, well, that's me for today, and I bet you are all glad I popped by!!!!! Take care all, and I hope you have a lovely weekend.

Walter

I'm still here all of you, but I need "some" time to think about all this: if I ramble too much, my hands will pay me back, so I'll have to think about what I say. I tend to agree with almost everything I've read so far!!

Don't forget though, that, as I mentioned before, it is not only the "whites" that invented the "class" system (or those that have & those that have not), but also the indians - what other cultures have also invented this sytem I wonder?

Sarum is a brilliant book, wish I had time to read all day - it would be finished by now.

Get back to you all soon - troubles with daughter, etc., etc., Any of you, perchance, taken a Phd?

Love one all
Shirps

Hi everyone,

It was good to hear from you Shirps, but it must be very frustrating for you to have to 'think' ahead and not be able to ramble. As must be fairly obvious, rambling is all I do and I think I'm getting worse. My theory is that the older you get the less time there is for all the words inside of you to have time to get out, either spoken or written words, so they have to come out faster. Being economical with words, and taciturn, is really an option best exercised by the young.

I think you are quite right with your comments on class. Class division is part of the human condition. Obviously not everyone calls it class, sometimes it is called a hierarchical structure, sometimes a pecking order, or whatever, but I don't think there has ever been a truly egalitarian and class-less society. No doubt the Brits have their share of history to contend with, and their critics, but it seems to me that the so-called 'post colonial theory' which is so fashionable in history as well as politically correct circles is giving poor old England an unfairly hard time. As you so rightly say Shirps, class distinction let's say in India scarcely gets a mention, and racial bigotry and xenophobia are as rampant around the world as it ever has been. But the tendency is to dwell on the Colonial and Empire days of the United Kingdom and the British, and bag them unceasingly and exclusively, and scorn the English class system. What I find interesting is not the debate over class or racial bigotry as such, but rather who is actually doing the debating, and trying to work out just why.

Well, back to work. It is a lovely early summer's day, predicted to get to 25 degrees, and of course like about ten million other people, I don't want to be here. Still, work pays for the summer wine, so I should just count my blessings and get on with the day. Take care,

Walter

Phew! This is definately one of the weightier conversations that I've been involved in here, and there ain't nothing wrong with that I just want to say hello to everyone, and say a few quick things before I head off to bed (I've been switched from the evening shift at the store to the morning, which on balance I'm very happy with - it's just that this is the first time in maybe 20 years that I've had to get up so early! It's also 20 years since I've known that I'll be home by 5.30pm every day, with the whole evening to go out and do stuff... or stay in and do stuff )
I think it was Walter who made a point about seeing historical events in their own context, and not judging the people by today's standards. That's a very important premise, and one which I've had a hard time getting across to some of my more... opinionated friends Also, I find the whole "let's say sorry" thing quite baffling. It relates to the point about context in way, because whatever was done in the past, even the very recent past, was done by the standards of the time, right or wrong. That's not to condone any of the things that were done, but my opinions and moral framework is constantly changing, I hope for the better, and views I held many years ago I look upon with some embarassment. Society does the same. If the wrongs were done within living memory, and if the people who perpetrated them are still around, then if they feel they ought to say something, they should be allowed to. But if they don't want to, they shouldn't be coerced. And the idea of a head of state 'apologising', and even offering monetary compensation for wrongs that were committed over 100 years ago is utterly beyond me. Wherever possible, they should just give the land back to the indigenous people that it was taken from.
There was another thing I wanted to say, and it's completely gone from my mind. It wasn't in answer to something, just a little comment I wanted to make, but it's gone away. This happens far too often these days OH! I remember now.
An Aussie came into the store a few weeks ago, and we got chatting for a while. The upshot of the conversation was what a great place Australia is, and he gave a friendly parting shot along the lines of "When your ancestors were transporting my ancestors to The Colonies, they had no idea they were sending us to bloody paradise"

Hi Shirps and Gogosh,

I've missed you both this week.

I will catch up with my replies to you shortly, but didn't want to miss wishing you both, and your families, a lovely Christmas and a healthy and happy New Year. I have really enjoyed our chats over the past few months, and look forward to many more in the new Millennium. Do take good care of yourselves,

Clive

Hi there Gosh, Walter & Beloved

Yep, this is quite a heavy discussion - still haven't got time to get back to you all, but WILL!!!

Hands & arms & .... hurt now - just made a cake, which wasn't quite cooked so I had to bung it in the microwave; mince pies: pastry too dry, so back in the mixer, but they seem to have turned out OK! Not looking forward to Xmas (sorry) morning, but, hey, once a year I can really suffer

Anyway, HAPPY CHRISTMAS & A VERY MERRY NEW YEAR TO ALL OF YOU - be kind to your turkeys - eat or freeze every last piece!!

With lots of love
Shirps XXXXXXXXXXX

Hi Shirps, Beloved, Walter.
Here's my Christmas greeting, shamelessly stolen from another forum, and devised by my good h2g2 friend Ottox. Merry Christmas everyone. (Dang, I hope this works )

......
......./\.
......//\\.
.....///\\\.
....////\\\\.
.../////\\\\\.
..//////\\\\\\.
.//////|||\\\\\\.

Veeeeeeeery Good Gosh!!!

May all your stars shine brightly!

Hi Shirps, Gosh and Walter

Hope Christmas was full of all the joys.

Must go but just wanted to wish you the compliments of the season.

Hope you ate lots of Christmas pudding, cake, mince pies etc etc.

B

Beloved, I've eaten far too much as my jeans are telling me!!!

Anyway, now it's a case of a Very Merry New Year - 2001 - have your machines begun talking to you? Have they become murderous? Take care ........Sp. Od.

I'll be back when my daughter, Liz, returns from whence she came!! Love her really!

Just finished Sarum by Edward Rutherford - great! Will read a few light books & then begin London (same author). I'm learning so much more about the history you never seem to hear about!

Lots of love to all
Shirps

Hi all

What's Sarum about Shirps? I've just started reading something called 'Cornucopia' - very light and about the gastronomic habits of the English. So far it seems to be looking at past and present, junk food versus home-made cheeses etc - maybe saying something about Englishness. One place the author talks about is a farm in Sussex (I think) which holds stock of many many fruit trees which aren't produced elsewhere. So you can go and taste apples and pears and whatever which aren't available - don't meet supermarkets desired shine, smoothness, (blandness) etc. Seems like a sort of gene bank. Somewhere I might have to put on our itinerary for our next trip to England I think. It sounds like my sort of a place.

About to go home for the weekend. Some gardening, walking and reading to do. Just got a bulb catalogue in the mail so will be musing on the relative delights of iris, daffodils, etc and what oh what we should get - my idea of heaven. Supposed to be 30 degrees on Sunday which is just a bit too warm for me so may do my musing and reading then.

Take care all.

B