h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I will reply--I need some time, busy right now.

In the meantime:

http://brain-terminal.com/articles/video/peace-protest.html

Ok-point for point. I welcome debate on every one of these points.

RE: Saddam is not Bin Laden

Agreed. I believe this is a propaganda ploy Bush is using. I think there are better reasons to take out Saddam than linking him closely with Bin Laden. Yes Saddam has funded and sheltered some terrorist cells, but not necessarily Al-Qaeda. I would like to see more proof. This does not mean I think we should leave Saddam alone. Do you beleive Saddam has not helped terrorist groups (I'll even discount for a moment the $10K reward for families of suicide bombers he gives out now and then).

RE: Saddam is not Iraq

Agreed. I think you're getting a little nit-picky here, as the leaflets the military have been dropping make it very clear that it is the Iraqi military, not their people, we are targeting:

http://www.centcom.mil/Galleries/leaflets/showleaflets.asp

RE: Saddam ain't attacking nobody

Only because we are already enforcing no-fly zones to protect Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north. Yes, we are PROTECTING Muslims from Saddam in the south. Boy, Bush really hates Muslims, huh?

And Saddam HAS ordered attacks against our aircraft patrols, he just hasn't been able to hit us yet. So how hard is it to believe he'd gear up for more? It's time to let the military take care of the problem for good.


RE: Prescott Bush and his legacy

I didn't think we punished the son for the sins of the father (or family) in this country. This is ad-hominem and I would like to try to stick to issues.

A lot of businesses sold to Nazis. It's shameful. George W. Bush did not.

China has been a most favored nation partner through Clinton's presidency, too (Clinton is not related to Prescott Bush, so there are most likely other reasons for China's status, such as "Big economy, good trading partner, lots of nukes, lets not piss them off directly). I don't like it either but it doesn't mean that Bush is wrong on Iraq. If you want to debate this, please open another thread because I think this is very much off the point (or convince me I'm wrong).

RE: Oil

If we'd wanted oil, we'd have taken it in 1991. Why didn't we do it then? That alone is enough to convince me that we aren't fighting for oil. It's just not part of the deal, any way, any shape, any how. If we wanted oil, we'd have it. Besides--would it be better to cut OFF the flow of oil from the middle east if you're a Texas Oil man?

I am willing to listen to cogent arguments, you have a seed of that in this message, please continue. But don't confuse a sick opportunism (which I think you've made a good case for) with war for spoils (which you haven't convinced me on).

RE: Byrd's Comments

Byrd is free to exercise his right to free speech. I encourage and welcome intelligent debate on this point. I have been upset that there aren't more rational, informed peace protesters. Most of them seem rather unwilling to come up with their own solutions, and frankly I feel that Leopardskinfynn is among that group, and I quote him:
"I don't have any answers".

I again have no problem with debate, but please bring a realistic alternative to the table. This is the very weakness of the UN which has left us in this situation all over the world. A call against arms is fine so long as you have some solution. Just protesting war while madmen gear up to kill us is not a valid solution.

RE: Changing Allies

You make some good points here. I think our foriegn policy is a mess. Yes, we supported the Taliban in a fight against Soviet expansion. I would say that at the time, it *may* have been a justifiable decision. Times change. Germany was once our biggest enemy, along with Japan. Do we still bomb them? No. Things change. The fall of the Soviet Union made us re-think a lot of our relationships with ugly characters (Shad, Saddam, etc.). But when the enemy of your enemy is your friend, these things happen. Does that mean we can't change our minds and take out the bastards we helped put in when we were fighting a common enemy? No. Boy it's ugly, but we still have an obligation to do the right thing.

Should I re-post this on the Great Debate board? Or have you guys gotten tired of me yet?

Butcher:
"I have been upset that there aren't more rational, informed peace protesters. Most of them seem rather unwilling to come up with their own solutions, and frankly I feel that Leopardskinfynn is among that group, and I quote him:
"I don't have any answers"."

Maybe you haven't been looking hard enough??
Some people tend to get a bit upset and emotional when it comes to the possibility of massive loss of lives, so I apologise on behalf of all those who care and desire peace.
Oh, and I'm female by the way, which has just proved to me that you haven't read my posts correctly.
I take objection to being termed 'uninformed'. You don't know me, you don't know what I do or what I know, so please keep your assumptions to yourself.
You're right, I don't have any answers - I was asking for some debate here from some of the other people subscribed to this thread....all I can offer in the way of any answers is to break the cycle of hatred and destruction now.
Are you able to take on board answers that are different from your own??

As this is a thread about Love, I didn't want to get into a big slanging match about the war, as I can see that you have your own opinions, and seem unwilling to open your eyes and see the truth behind all the spiel that you've swallowed from Bush.

Again, thanks for pushing my buttons. I hope that you never have to live through the horror and realities of a full scale attack on your own country.

And now I suggest you take your arguments for war to the appropriate place.

If you read my last post, you will see several concessions and even some criticizm of Bush. I am an open minded person, despite what you think (if you knew me five years ago, you wouldn't believe the difference in my politics, becuase of what I've learned from others with very different attitudes).

Completely off the topic of war, then, is this:

I have been willing to debate point-for-point on issues, but in response I get "You're closed-minded and a Bushie, and Bush is bad so you're bad." That's not the kind of debate I had in mind. If you had wanted to stick to issues and offer alternative solutions, you might find that it wasn't me pushing you buttons, but it was your own frustration with my style of argument. This happens to a lot of people. But it doesn't happen when they stick to issues. If you wanted to convince me of the possibility of any of the points I listed (exactly in response to someone else's post, point for point), then list the point and your reasons for disagreement. Then see what my response is.

If I have no ability whatsoever to convince you that you should re-evaluate your opinions (which I am resigned to, and you are entitled to think the way you want), then at least think about re-evaluating your style of debate, so you too can learn from others and consider different points of view.

So this is going to deterioate into a slanging match after all then.

The reason why I didn't want to answer your post point-by-point was because I don't feel that this is the place to be arguing about the war. Rightly or wrongly, h2g2 has decided that we should limit discussions on the war to certain threads and sites, and I want to honour that decision (and I'll leave my own thoughts on censorship out of it).

I didn't mean to call you closed minded, I'm sorry if it came across that way - but then that is apparently how you see me.

You're right in saying that I was frustrated with you - but that's mainly because I didn't want this thread to become yet another place to argue about the rights and wrongs of this war.


I am sticking to the issues *here*, which is, strangely enough Love. I don't see it to be of any benefit to me, you or anyone else for us to be arguing and name calling, and so I am trying to refrain from becoming too involved with each point of the 'debate' over whether or not the war is Just. If that's what you want, then I suggest you go over to my personal space and you can call me whatever names you like.


I don't want to convince you of anything. I'd appreciate it if you showed me the same courtesy.

Ok, then, I'm confused. You were critical of my point of view, you expressed that (I'm all for free speech, believe me), but you weren't interested in debate.

If you want me to bring the conversation into the proper forum, I'll happily do it. You don't seem to want that either.

I am the kind of person who gets frustrated when someone disagrees with me, but then stops short of going whole hog and providing alternative ideas.

What can I do to make you happy, then?

It's not that I'm not interested in debate Butcher (far from it my friend, debate is an excellent way for people to grow and learn) - it's just that I don't think here is the appropriate place for this particular debate about the war.

Having just re-read the whole of this thread, I can see that I probably sparked things off with a comment about 9/11. With the benefit of hindsight I can see that that probably wasn't the wisest move.


I don't want you to do anything to try to make me happy - that's something that I can only achieve myself.
However I *would* suggest that a debate about the war be moved to a more appropriate place, for the sake of the rest of the people on this thread (who have gone very quiet!) and for the sake of the moderators here on h2g2 who have to carry the burden of the imposed 'censorship'.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you brought up the subject of 'happiness' Butcher, what would make *you* happy?

I think we can continue this conversation without it being about war specifically, but about love and how to deal with problems that seem to contradict universal love and MLK and Ghandi and the way some of Jesus' words are interpreted by some people.

Let me pose to you a common problem (one that I and my friends have personally experienced)--bullying in school.

What should a young man do when he's getting pushed around by a bigger kid? MY advice would be "hit back". There is obvious violation of the doctrine of nonviolence in such a move, yet I still support it (even believing in loving my enemy). Loving my enemy does not mean--to me, at least--letting him walk all over me. If my kid was getting pushed around, I'd want him to stand up for himself, and I'd suggest fighting back as an option.

Now I have to ask about your ideology of acceptance and nonviolence, and universal love. What would you do in that situation?

thank you leopard-- was wondering when the BBC would get around to censoring, errrr, redirecting discussion on the "war". thanks for the tip.

well-- i posted the above reply and was finally taken to the rest of the entries-- wow! yes, the non-declared, unauthorized by US congress, illegal by international law "war" issue has been moved by BBC edict, errrr, policy change, errrr, whatever, and we should respect their wishes-- they are after all, providing this forum. "it's their ball..."

ok, so love is the thing. love and peace is the thing. love and peace and God... and do unto others, and love thy enemy, and.. and.. hug a glacier today, because tomorrow, bush will be drilling in the arctic wilderness.. nahhh, it aint about oil...

ok, so love it is and love will it be. what i've decided, after going off the deep end, is that you either believe in the sanctity of life and freedom, or you believe you can kill people to set them free. one seems to be an expression of love and respect, the other, a twisted and demented form of control-freakish judgementalist, might-makes-right, buy our mickey-dees OR ELSE! pragmatic philosophical junkyard of mental illness, that passes for normal in america's inner cities.

you know, i love my country. i love the rednecks, the hippies, the pseudo-intellect tree huggers and genuine geniuses (genii?). i love the fact that so far, no one has traced my plans to overthrow the government by intellectual force and come to break down my door and crash my pitiful windows ME version from hell anyway...

do i love those highjackers? maybe in a few more years. right now, i aint crazy about loving anyone... at all. especially myself. my taxes paid for the cruise missiles that only total morons can believe are only destroying non-human things. i suffer from PTSD. it kicks up in a nasty variety of ways. i get bipolar episodes, lose my color vision and/or tastebuds, catatonia, turrets oh what fun it is to sing a..., add, adhd, and why? i cant go near my TV set anymore. i watched bloodbaths in Viet Nam, in Selma, Alabama, on the campuses of Kent state, Berkeley, Brooklyn college...

when will God change the male aggression hormone thing and let us live in our feminine, peaceful, gentle aspects, where toleration is the guiding principle and not fear; where the true desire to understand and share in the light of knowledge promotes and motivates love, rather than have the sick need to win the debate, prove the point, establish dominance, be the ruling planet? when will we simply beat the swords into plowshares and study war no more? when will our "civilizations" accept the reality that they are no more civilized than wandering packs of hyenas, dropping bombs, food and leaflets? what the hell is that? (rhetorical, please... i dont want the lecture). when will humanity grow the f*ck up already? learn to work out differences with even the most belligerent among us? ohhh, it CAN be done... unless whole armies are stoned on angel dust or heroin or something.

i just so tired of living in fear and depression, putting up a good front, when innocent civilians are dying, soldiers are roasting in helicopter crashes, HUMAN BEINGS ARE DYING OVER WORDS... over ideas, over principles, ideals, who knows anymore? world news services are slanted, bought, misguided, disinformed... no one will ever know the truth anyway, so who cares? to care is to be in pain.

it's almost 1 PM in baghdad. here's the website of a forum where this english speaking iraqi was spitting out stuff as long as there was electricity:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/washoeantiwar/message/676
Nathan Gove
Date: Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:37 pm
Subject: Web log from Baghdad

A blog from an English speaking Iraqi who has spent part of his life abroad but who is in Baghdad now: http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

Salam gives a personal view of what it's like to live during the bombing. He's posted a few times since the war started. I assume he'll keep going until the electricity gets knocked out.

It's also worthwhile to look at his archives. The blog has been running since September. The December blog has some especially interesting commentary. Salam supports democracy in Iraq and has no love for Saddam. But he questions the genuinity of Americans who talk about liberating Iraq and their concern about human rights there. To put Saddam's horrors into perspective, he details human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Israel/Palestine. Then he says:

"The whole region is a cesspool. dictatorships are all around the arab
region. Turkey and Iran fair just as bad as the rest of the lot. But the benevolent western eye looks at Iraq only.

Thank you for your keen interest in the human rights situation in my
country, thank you turning a blind eye for thirty years, thank you for
providing the support for my government to send 2 million Iraqis to war with Iran and getting them killed, thank you for not minding the
development of chemical weapons by a nut case when you knew he was a nut case, thank you for not minding that members of the Iraqi communist party get acid baths (you don't think that this was used for the first time in Kuwait do you?, the government used these baths since the late 70's), thank you for ignoring all human rights organizations when it came to the plight of the Iraqi people, thank you for keeping sanctions which you knew only weakened the people and had no effect on the government. Thank you for knowing all this and not minding."

When Salam is told by an American to "SHUT THE F--- UP and learn to
appreciate us a little!!!", he responds like this:

OK, let us all have 5 minutes of silence to do some appreciation.

I appreciate the dropping of tons of bombs on my country.

I appreciate the depleted uranium used in these bombs.

I appreciate the whole policy of dual containment which kept the region constantly on the boil because it was convenient for the US.

I appreciate the support the US government shows to all the oppressive
governments in the region only to dump them after they have done what
was needed of them.

I appreciate the US role in the sanctions committee.

I appreciate its effort in making me look for surgical gloves and
anesthetic in the black market just to get a tooth pulled out, because
these supplies are always being vetoed by the sanctions committee.

I appreciate the policies of a country which has spent a lot of time and effort to sustain economic sanctions that punished the Iraqi people while it had no effect on Saddam and his power base, turning us into hostages in a political deadlock between the Iraqi government and the US government.

I appreciate the role these sanctions had in making a country full of
riches so poor.

I appreciate watching my professors having to sell their whole personal libraries to survive, and seeing their books being bought by UN staff who take home as souvenirs.

I have so much appreciation it is flowing out of my ears.
********************
ok, i dont have time to proofread this mess, so please forgive.

what should a small nation do when it is getting pushed around by the world's only super power? according to bin laden, fight back. hmmmm. here's something in the meantime.
http://www.vaiw.org/

I learnt the hard way that you have to love yourself first before you can truely be loved.
Unfortuatly after my enagement was f
inally over I felt it was all my fault and did not deserve to be loved.I did marry on the rebound so someone who well was not right for me but thought it was gods punishment.Over the years I realised and did start to love myself and saw the good qualities I have.I also knew that I did deserve better to be happy to be loved.I did get divorced under well not good circumstanes althought I had my problems mainly money.I am happy I have meet someone who truely loves me and who know what the hope future holds.
Love yourself and others will don't execpt second best and never give up hope.

i've just realised all thet i believed that brought me where iam in my life has been clouded in a fog of trying to please others not knowing what i want or believe brought on by not loving myself and feeling unworthy of others love to the point of pushing them into hating me because they seemed to like me thus a self fulfilling prophecy,i'm changing this and have begun to see a true happiness is possible but how do you begin to love and be comfortable with yourself when it's at odds with all you have believed in the past
as to war and love being enough to change the world there are no easy answers but i do believe that we can only do what we can to change our own lives and the lives of those we come into contact with like recycling do what you can with a ripple effect there could be a silent revolution as to self help books louise l hay writes a lot of sense

Life is a learning curb,thought our exeperinces we become the person we are today.
If we learn then we can move on and become a better and wiser person.
But if we don't learn then we will keep on making the same mistakes.
I try also to treat people the way I like to be treated and if I help anyone along my way I will

Butcher, To answer your question about bullying :

I don't know what a young man should do when being bullied. I'm a woman, so I wouldn't presume to know how to deal with being bullied coming from a male perspective.
Presumably when a young man is being bullied this could have a damaging effect on the developing male psyche, bringing up and confusing issues of domination, control and other so-called male attributes.

However, I was bullied as a young girl so I do understand how it feels for a young woman in that situation. It brought up the issues of not feeling in control of my own life, being somehow 'less' than other people and not wanting to raise my voice for fear of condemnation.



Now you ask me what should a young man do in this situation - hit back right?
Well for a start, self-defence is very different to agression. No-one has the right to damage another person after all.

I do believe however that there is another way.

What if the young man is question had been brought up to believe in non-violence but also to believe in his right to not be violated by another?
If a son of mine (I have no children at this point) was being bullied, my first reaction would be anger (naturally), then I would want to boost his self confidence and self esteem as it is my belief that bullies only pick on those they see as vulnerable, weak, or 'different'.
I would hopefully have introduced my children to martial arts
pretty early on, as I see them as an excellent training tool for their minds, bodies and self confidence, but if I hadn't done this by now, then now would be an excellent time to start. If a young person has confidence in themselves and their ability to avoid being damaged in an attack by another, then I believe that this would give the bully the incentive to back off.
To put yourself into the bully's shoes for the moment - if you tried to pick on someone who wouldn't engage with you, or who could dodge any of your attacks, wouldn't you decide to leave them alone?


By lowering oneself to the standard of the bully, one is demeaning oneself and is becoming that which is despised, no?
In my opinion, bullies are often people who were either bullied themselves at some point, or who were spoilt by their parents into having everything they want, whenever they want. I would explain this to my child, and hopefully they would want to break this cycle of abusing others in order to bolster low self esteem/selfish instant gratification.
I think that there is a world of diffence between standing up for oneself and fighting back - to prevent oneself from being harmed is *not* the same as causing unnecessary pain to another.



OK, sorry for such a long post, sometimes it seems that I am unable to be brief when explaining myself!

Ok, self-esteem is important. But being skinny and looking weak makes you a target, regardless. For many of us males, it's not until we start drinking beer that we can put any weight on. No amount of self-esteem will make an 45 Kg wimp look like less of a target to a 70 Kg monster.

Even as an adult, I encountered intimidation by bigger guys, even when I had a lot of confidence. So I think the threat of hitting back really has to be there, and when I showed a willingness to get physical, it was then and only then that they backed off.

Now in terms of love, there's an issue here: If I hit somebody who's my enemy, do I still love him (even as I could love an enemy)?

My answer is yes, because I beleive that by hitting some of those kids back, they learned something about how to treat people, and I'd like to think that maybe the next time they saw a little skinny guy, well maybe they showed more respect (so I'm also showing love for myself, in the form of self-defense, and for other skinny guys, because maybe I've made it a little easier for them).

But then I'm just a dreamer that way, that my actions can change people's perceptions. Some folks, arguably rightly so, think it's futile. But to me this is a good example of loving in a conflict situation, because both people come out better for it.

Does that make any sense at all? What ended up happening in your bully situation? Was it talked out, or what?

Well I've thought long and hard about this over the last few weeks which is why I haven't posted before now.
I'm very wary of giving my opinion and it being thought of as some sort of universal 'truth', so I have held my tongue (or should that be fingers?!?) until now.

You asked what happened in my 'bullying situation', and this is something that I have thought long and hard about posting on a public forum. I reached the decision that it would probably be necessary to illustrate my point.


There are two distinct 'bullying situations' in my life:
The first as a young girl being picked on by older girls, probably because I looked different and was a quiet, thoughtful child. I didn't stand up to these intimidating girls because they were older, and I was afraid. With the benefit of hindsight, I can see that if I had spoken my mind and had refused to be intimidated then things might have worked out differently. At the time however, having been brought up to believe that I was indeed, worth less than anyone else in this world, I silenced my voice and just took it. That was easier.


The second 'situation'...well let me just say that I was sexually assaulted when I was a teenager. The old role of playing 'victim' settled easily about my shoulders, and I was silent, not thinking that anyone would believe me if I cried out at the time, or afterwards.
Again, with the benefit of hindsight, I can see that *if* I had only raised my voice, *if* I had only stood up to him, *if* I hadn't been wearing that dress, *if*, *if*, *if*.....
the list of *if's* and *but's* continues ad nauseum.



I now firmly believe in speaking out against atrocities, whether they be small or large. How would it be if everyone who was against sexual abuse/violence stood up for what they believed in and raised their voice as one? I think that many people would have their viewpoint challenged and would have to confront (by explaining to themsleves) their inner demons.


But, to get back to the subject of bullying...
well I think that there is a world of difference between standing up for oneself, and being aggressive. In the case of childhood bullying, I think that the only way to stop it is to prevent it. We all know that children are cruel - they will find a weakness and exploit if for their benefit. How else do they learn about the world and boundaries?

Once bullying has ocurred, then shameful as it may be, the subject needs to speak out against the abuse and invasion of personal privacy. The bullies need to be exposed for the shameful, scared cowards that they really are. That is not achieved by the subject's aggression, but by voicing their pain, their defiance, and by showing the bully that they will never be frightened again.

I hope that this answers your questions Butcher.