h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

this post appears to have been written by someone who once read a readers digest book on socialism and now think they're an expert. no offence mate, but it's ludicrously simplistic, and as a socialist i find it quite insulting. but that's ok, as socialists we expect to be insulted all the time.

it is not 'some vaguely concieved notion of solidarty'. if you've never experienced this thing, solidarity, it's easy to scoff at, but if you have then it changes you forever. though real socialism has never existed on a large scale, there have been things which gave a taste of what it might possibly be like. and if a group of trotskyists briefly taking over a building somewhere can make all those who took part feel differently about everything for ever, imagine what the real thing will be like. except you can't, cos you've got no idea. but when it happens, you'll be swept up in it along with everyone else and it'll be amazing.

socialism didn't originate with any 'thinker', though they helped with the theory and wrote it all down in books. it originated when the first slave looked at his master and thought 'hmm. i appear to be doing all the work while he's lying there eating grapes and being sick into a gold plated bucket. there's something screwy about that... hang on, there are hundreds of us slaves and only one of him... a plan is forming...' and so it began. but before *that* there were thousands and thousands of years with no class divisions and no property, so if anyone tells you people being b*****s to each other is the natrual state of things, they are lying.

the 'socialist' parties who make up the second international (which i thought disappeared around the time of the first world war, ut you live and learn have long abandoned any pretence of being socialist, therefore they have no place in a discussion about socialism. new 'labour' has even abandoned the idea of being social democratic, and opted for straight thatcherism. this confused a lot of people into thinking really silly things like the class struggle is over, the working class doesn't exist any more (in which case who do they think made their trainers? middle class chinese professionals?) etc.

socialist thinkers never embraced the notion of authoritarian state planning. there were always 2 views of the USSR and china on the left: 1) they're not authoritarian 2) they're not any good. now the people who always said they weren't authoritarian have mostly given up or come round to our way of thinking, whic is that the USSR wasn't socialist at all but state capitalist, meaning evrything still run for profit but owned by the state. and if anyone thinks something really changed in russia in 1991 then they should look closely and they'd see the same people are still in charge, only they've changed their names from Special Commissar in charge of Widgets to CEO of the Russian Widget Corporation, now employing half the people for less wages but returning fat profits to him. some revolution.

finally the bit about the fourth international. as a troskyist, i know what i'm talking about here. firstly, trotskyists don't necessarily support *violent* revolutuion. we support revolution, and if that involves violence, we can deal with that. we're not pacifists in the way of gandhi, but we don't go around saying 'wahey! violence! bring it on!' if the revoultion can be peaceful, great. if anyone makes it violent, it won't be us. in fact it can't be us, cos we haven't got any weapons. so really we hope like mad it won't be violent, because if it is, we'll be the first to get it in the neck. as usual.
and *no* trotskyists *anywhere* support china. not supporting china is what being a trotskyist is all about. china is the worst capitalist state of the lot. some people who consider themselves trotskyists might support cuba, but never unconditionally. of course i support cuba against american imperialism, but i don't think it's a great place or anything. there are a few good aspects, like the health system, but it's not democratic and democracy is absolutely central to socialism, whatever the capitalists may say.

and that's it. also, in any article about socialism you should probably mention the anti-capitalist movement, which describes itself as variously anarcho-green-lefty-vegan-nutacse, but contains a lot of socialists like me who are trying to say 'enough of this anarcho-vegan-tofu-based-sausage s**te, let's propose something better to replace capitalism not just oppose it randomly'. respect to anarchists, though, and they have great imagination... who would have thought of destroying capitalism by walking around on stilts painted green and blowing bubbles? fantastic. unfortunately you can't bring down mcdonalds my smashing the windows, even while on stilts painted green, they just put new ones in. the way to bring down mcdonalds is to get the workers to organise a union, go on strike and give away free burgers. that would bollix them, hahaha.

and that's the end of my rant.

sloidarity, comrade

Wow! I know absolutely nothing about Socialism, but what I do know is that your Space is not very inviting! You need to write an introduction, by clicking on the Edit button on the right hand side. Unless you do that, people cannot talk to you. Also, by clicking on the Preferences button along the top, you can create a nickname for yourself. This is what you will be forever known as on h2g2, so choose carefully!

Finally, h2g2 is a very happy place. One of the things that is not taken so kindly, as there are children on the site, is swearing. Although most of us don't mind, there are few people who could be offended, so if in future, should you feel the absolute need to swear, could you kindly put a couple of stars in? Much appreciated. Also, always try not to be offensive to anyone. I don't think you meant to be here, but always try to be careful.

Apart from that, I hope you have a good time on h2g2! If you want to talk or have any questions, drop me a line at U188069.

VIPx

I just thought I'd check your other article, and I really want to press the point about swearing. It is not always necessary, and it can create tension. Once again, I don't want to be nasty, you are a newcomer here and you don't know our little ways!

Thanks,

VIPx

what are you on about? i did put stars in! well ok then.. **** ****** ***** ********* ******** ****!!!! happy now?
if i missed out some stars somewhere, sorry. but i'd like to point out to any parents out there, if your child is old enough to read rants about socialism, they already know all the swearwords there are available. sorry. i think it's one of those things you learn on the first day of school, but i know that was a long time ago for some of you.

sloidarity, comrade

Yes, the second article I read did have stars in. But we are a gentle community here, and it's not generally appreciated, except when company is known and receptive.

I do respect your point of view, and in some cases I agree. There may be other places on the Internet where swearing is fine, but here at the BBC we are not too partial to it (I am not a member of the staff here, but it has been delegated to me as a Researcher to try and help keep the peace). It is still not the most pleasant of things to hear. You get enough of it everywhere you go. h2g2 is a refuge from these things for many people. Also be aware that there is a button which people can press if they deem a posting too offensive. Too many of these can lead to a ban.

Once again, no offence meant, but it might be adviseable for your own happiness here to curb your tongue a little.

VIP.

do you respect my point of view about swaering or socialism? because that's important, and swaring really isn't...
*!
solidarity, comrade

Both, but everybody has a right to anything they want to believe! I expect people to respect my belief as a Christian, and in return I respect that everyone has their own beliefs and opinions which are just as valid, if not more so, than mine.

Researcher who.....

Hello comrade. I think you're spot on in most of what you say. Certainly there's a big difference between accepting the need for violence in certain circs, and embracing violence. Also, socialism has been consistently mis-described and subsequently dismissed over the last 10 years of centre right consensus in the "free world". Trot or not, I suspect you and I live in the same ideological world.

But don't dis anarchists unless you know what you're talking about. I have no more time for vegan pagan jugglers than you have, but they're not anarchists, they're pillocks.

Socialism, or communism is the only way out for human society, its also the ultimate human achievement. I believe that rational socialism can only be achieved by a sociaty of grown up anarchists (not a bunch of dreadlocked students). You, I presume, resort to an authoritarian command economy. I suspect that both Marx and Trotsky saw the "proletarian" state as a stopgap, and that their ultimate aim was libertarian socialism. I might well be wrong.

Nonetheless, I know that, as far as distribution is concerned, socialism is the only solution if we don't want to retreat back into the jungle. The social context of fairness is a separate issue.

But don't equate anarchism with the green/animal lib/veggie/pagan dog on a string road protesting McD hating remnant of mass protest. Some of us know what we're talking about.

In solidarity,

Stella X.

For fxxk's sake.

You can swear on the BBC just fine provided you star the bad sxxt out. Hell, there are some words you can use without even needing stars. And the vast majority of Researchers on h2g2 don't give two flying fxxks about swearing, let alone starred out swear words.

> "I am not a member of the staff here, but it has been delegated to me as a Researcher to try and help keep the peace"

No it hasn't. Read <./>Aces-What</.>. Keeping the peace isn't part of the job description, for good reasons.

ACEs are meant to make the site sticky. You've just done the opposite.

-Xanthia

Can I just quote too:

"They are always available to provide a polite and friendly helping hand. They greet newbies and help them get to grips with the sometimes overwhelming h2g2 experience.

They try to calm down heated discussions with a few well-chosen words. "


That was all I was trying to do. Yes, I do appreciate the note about swearing, but it this particular case I felt that it has gone a little too far. I personally found the level of language offensive, which is why I said what I did. There will be other people, I'm sure, who would have done the same. If they hadn't been new, I would have pressed the Yikes button. I was trying to make sure that the situation didn't occur again.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with what I did. I was just trying to do what I thought was right.

VIP.

> "...They try to calm down heated discussions..."

Very true. My mistake.

> "I personally found the level of language offensive, which is why I said what I did."

Fine. And I've got no problem with that. But if you *personally* find it offensive, why mention the BBC? Judging from this newcomer's personal space, sie certainly viewed your intervention here as an official representative of the site - rather than it being just a personal view.

-Xanthia

To my mind, if I found it offensive, then there would be other people who did too. I was hoping quiet word (though there may be difference of opinion on how I did that, I'm sure) would help. I am quite happy to admit I'm wrong, but in this context I'm not sure I am.

I have just visited his Space, and I do see where you are coming from, in term of the 'official'bit. But I'm afraid anyone who starts a conversation 'how did this rubbish get edited' is not being polite enough. Even if he had found many things wrong (and I know he did, fair enough) there should still not be a need for rudeness of that degree. This is someone's work he is talking about. There are limits. You may not have found his approach rude (as you posted there I don't think you did) but I'm afraid I did. I'm trying not to get on my high horse here, because this isn't the approach required, but I'm finding it difficult to appreciate your point of view.

I have to say that the line "how did this rubbish get edited" is pretty fair comment on the piece.

It isn't a description of Socialism, it's an incomplete list of some of the views of an incomplete list of some of the groups who describe themselves as "socialist". It tells you nothing about the evolution of the ideology let alone its implementation.

As I know nothing about socialism, I cannot say anything! I'm sure you're right though. It may have been rubbish, but was there any need to be quite so blunt?

Could I ask, to try and end this (because I hate arguing!), what you think I should have done, to try and see how our approaches differ?

Hi GreyDesk.

I quite liked this entry, actually. To be sure it's incomplete and kind of superficial, but no less valuable for that. Come the appropriate time, people can write further articles that go into more detail.

VIP - I'm happy to end this here. You can see where I'm coming from, and that's good enough for me.

Be Well
-Martin

Thankyou. I'll do my best to be more careful in future.

Laura.

VIP you were probably on a hiding to nothing with this case, it's common practice amongst Socialists to be rude about one anothers views. In some cases very rude indeed! Your approach on first reading seemed a little sharp, but I do see where you were coming from and have no criticisms there at all.

Lucinda, you want someone to write a history of Socialism! There isn't enough space in the Guide to fit it all in. As a general rule the minimum number of socialists needed in a party to generate a split on ideological grounds is two

Just as an aside, the roots of Trotskyite thinking in the UK can be traced back to the Balham group in the 1930s. It had much in common with Citizen Smith and the Tooting Popular Front, being as it was a couple of stops further along the Northern Line. But at three, it didn't have as many members

Thanks Greydesk. And may I ask, as we're on the subject, how could you sum up Socialism? I know nothing at all. I realise it probably splits and has many different views, but what is the general view? Is there one?

"...but what is the general view? Is there one?"

The simple answer is no! Sorry.