h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Why do people say that? Is there some obscure historical origin? You never hear anybody say "Scottish Scotland" or "English England", so why "Welsh Wales"?

What kind of context, Mr. D? I've not heard it before.

"I'm going to Welsh Wales."
"I've been to Welsh Wales."

So basically where people are holidaying West of the border, I guess... for example I've never heard anyone say "Cardiff is in Welsh Wales" or similar.

And here's an actual example I just found: http://www.croeso-betws.org.uk/

Huh, how weird. I guess the idea is to emphasise that Wales isn't just a bit of land to the left of England, it's a place in its own right.

Perhaps it's Welsh Wales as opposed to englishised Wales?

From long ago
I suspect South, Mid and West would be Welsh Wales whereas the Northeast may not be/have been seen as wholly that.
Liverpool was (then, wryly,) said to be the capital of North Wales.

yeah, I think it used to mean where they spoke Welsh in day to day life. There is more Welsh spoken these days than there used to be, so there is no need to make the distinction anymore.

My first husband was a Welsh speaker at home until he went to school, where it was banned. How times have changed.

Don't you remember when all the English only road signs were regularly painted out by language activists? Before they were all in Welsh and English?

>>Liverpool was (then, wryly,) said to be the capital of North Wales.

Which is how my Grandma and her sisters ended up there from Penarth in South, English Wales.

I always understood it to mean Welsh-speaking Wales. Grandma wasnt a native speaker, but did have enough school Welsh to get the gist of the S4C news.

btw...in Glasgow I learned that a Welsh former colleague only spoke English on a daily basis when he moved here.

My goodness, Lanzababy 'in living memory', eh?
That was a while ago. My secondary (grammar) school taught Welsh as a compulsory language - I think it was the first year that Welsh was allowed (or nearly so).

Aye, road signs ... and holiday homes were vandalised for not making a decent enough contribution to communities (only the bloody English could afford them of course) - that went on for some years (or is it still?)

>>>Grandma wasnt a native speaker, but did have enough school Welsh


are you sure that is the right way round? Speaking Welsh was banned in the English-owned mines. Miners would face the possibility of being sacked if they were heard to speak Welsh to each other at the coal face. My in-laws told me that a lot of the South Wales miners families took to speaking English at home as a consequence of this. I was wondering whether your Grandmother was of the generation where speaking Welsh was considered dangerous or subversive. Was it really taught to her in school? Rod's post that his was the first year it was allowed to be taught rings true with what I know about it.


(and to Rod, I think they have stopped burning the second homes now)

Odd (to me), Ntm, >...South, English Wales<, but then it is Southeast, I suppose.

I'm guessing your former colleague would be from West-a-bit.

There are places even in the North where if you go for a beer, there are glances and certain tones of voice. Then on leaving you say "Nos Dda" - and sudden silence.
(mind you, if challenged I'd have been in trouble. Several times).

"I always understood it to mean Welsh-speaking Wales"

I wonder why nobody says Scottish Scotland then? My mum and aunties grew up speaking Gàidhlig as their first language and right up until she died my Granny went to Gàidhlig-only church services (she belonged to a sect which broke away from the main Presbyterian church because the Presbyterians weren't hardcore enough... )

@Lanza:

I think it was complicated. My Grandma certainly learnt Welsh at school, and was taught to sing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, but her community wasnt Welsh speaking. Yes, Welsh-speaking was discouraged further up in the valleys....and this is illustrated in the BAFTA-winning drama series written by the Grandma of another former Reseacher.

@Rod:

My colleague was from Ynys Mon.

@Mr D:

I guess the word for Scottish Scotland would be The Gàidhealtachd. But its maybe a bit of a specialist term - Gaelic isnt as widely spoken as Welsh, being restricted to the remoter Islands and the West End of Glasgow* (although Gaelic road signs begin at Loch Lomond, for tourist purposes).

Note for outsiders: Irish *Gaylic* but Scots *Gallic*, generally.

Its also perhaps further complicated by the fact that through a lot of its history, English and Scottish have been considered as distinct-but-largely mutually-intelligible languages (cf Swedish/ Danish/ both Norwegians). Certainly not far from me they speak a language which is not entirely mutually intelligible with English.








*Glasgows Gaelic school is popular with West End parents wishing to give their kids a head start with jobs at the BBC.

I've only ever heard it when there was a danger of the word Wales being mixed up with those large aquatic beasties.

My nan was Welsh, from Porthcawl. She used to say that the people from North Wales were "Welsh" Welsh, because they didn't like the fact that everyone expected them to speak English. In fact, I remember holidaying in North Wales as a youngster and going to a cafe for something to eat. The menu was in Welsh, so my mum asked if they had one in English. The waitress yanked the menu from her hand and stomped off, then completely ignored, so after 10 minutes or so we went off to find somewhere else to eat. I would say that the waitress was definitely "Welsh" Welsh, so I guess that makes North Wales "Welsh" Wales by osmosis.

Has anyone heard the phrase ~Theres Welsh!~?

yes, shortly following by 'for you'

duw duw

Welsh cakes.

Yes please not the monkey, and no sugar in the cuppa to go with them