h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

'Send your children to church so that they get the fundamental teachings of morality right'

Interesting view, I find that you can learn morality quite well from other sources, without the idea that you can do what you like so long as you have been saved. If you are a christian then God will forgive you murder, if you are not a christian but live a good life then you go to hell. What kind of scary moral teaching is that to give a child?

A really interesting point kaz

Hi Humble

I have read of some terrible human rights abuses in Egypt, so your situation is more important then I first realised. Do you think you could move one day? Do you know of others who have moved and do they feel they made the right choice?

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Yes, an excellent point, Kaz. Well, as you know, we have had similar experiences with the Christian religion.



humble,

I didn't mean to make it sound like moving out of your environment to another country was the *only* option you had to stay true to yourself. Of course it would depend on how difficult you personally felt it to be 'living a lie'. Meanwhile, many people live a lie every day by working at jobs they don't enjoy (or even hate), yet they have to pretend that the good of their company is important to them. Many people don't agree with their government's policies but continue to live with them. Etc, etc.

In the end it's a personal choice that only you can make based on which issues you are able to compromise on without feeling totally compromised.

If I had a child I would not send them to any particular church (since I don't belong to one myself). But I *would* educate them about various religions and philosophys so that when they were older they could decide for themselves whether joining a religion would suit them or not.

I'm not anti-religion, per se, but I also don't think it fair to subject a child to a religious upbringing before they are able to reason for themselves. And, as Kaz pointed out, there are many other ways to teach morality.

az

I was delighted to get out of Egypt - but then I was there as a serving airman - during the days of King Farouk - I predicted revolution because of the conditions of the average egyptian and it soon came about.

I don't know that conditions have improved very much but then the prevalent attitude in Egypt, not being very enlightened, was don't worry - Allah keefic - it is the will of Allah. They have a totally differrent approach to life from the average European.

I go along with comments by Kaz, above - you don't need to attend church to learn our moral beliefs, but too many parents do not teach them to their children. The attitude of the young in England is no where near to what it was in my young days. (many moons ago.)

Jazz

hi jazzme,

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Also, as was my case growing up, I was sent to the RC church every Sunday by my parents and was also forced to take catechism classes, first communion, etc. Meanwhile, no moral values were being taught at home. Heck, my parents never bothered to go to church themselves, but as they had been brought up RC they thought their kids had to do this.

This only ended up confusing me and made for some pretty scary childhood nightmares about GOING TO HELL.

az

Many of us have mentioned teaching moral beliefs to our children. Just how do you do this? I know, teaching through example and talking with your children. But there must be more than this. I find this task to be a little overwhelming and was just looking for some ideas. Thanks!

Hi az

I have a son and daughter in law in Toronto - been there - lovely country you have.

Jazz

hi jazzme,

Well, now that I've lived in Spain for the past twelve years I can't really say that Canada is still 'the country I have'. But I agree with you that Toronto is a wonderful city. And Canada *is* an amazing country. Very tolerant, a wonderful 'cultural mosaic' that accepts everyone. It also has one of the best social health care systems on the planet and always ends up in the top five each year of those surveys that talk about countries with the 'highest standard of living'.

To be honest, part of the reason I left there to live in Europe was to get away from the 'noisy neighbours' and to live a life that was not so based on $$$. But I still love Canada very much and feel quite proud of her global 'identity'. Even though the joke goes that Canada has a serious national identity crisis. But this is only because Canadians are not *nationalistic*, which I think is a very good thing. We are just so nice!

az

To teach morals I would suggest a story of a hypothetical situation, or a real situation to give more merit. Discuss the problem, the possible solutions and ask your child if they could see another solution (just to prove that you don't think you know everything!). Discuss the pros and cons of each outcome, always ask your childs opinion first and then if needs be explain why the moral outcome maybe different to that seen by your child.

Don't just state morals, always let your child speak first as you never know they may have already graspsed the best moral outcome. Always ask why the other outcomes are not so good. That way you get talking about all the different scenarios. Also, explain societies morals, how they may not be the best, but if you want a quiet life they are also ones to follow or not.

Thanks for the follow up, fellow researchers

I have some very interesting questions and answers for you.

Regarding the issue of moral believes , I agree with you that the church is not the only and may not be the best source for moral believes. It also had this disadvantage (especially in our Coptic Otrhodox churches) of nearly stopping the human mind from working in order to believe in Saints and miracles ..etc. I mean they don't encourage you to THINK at all , but to go as you are told, if you understand what I mean. Which may grow up and include other areas of your thinking other than religious issues , and be an attitude of your mind. In short, they are trying to bring the human mind back to the middle ages.
But.... and there is always but. If you've read my previous posts you would have noticed some very important advantages that the faithfuls obtain , namely :
1. You become much less afraid of tomorrow as you can " fasten your burden on God's shoulder ", in contrast with the nonreligiuos who knows there is no divine power Guarding every step he makes.
2. It decreases to a great extent that overwhelming fear of death that every creature faces naturally . Faithfuls believe that you're not just going to be "eaten by worms" like we say in Arabic.
No, they refuse this fact by beleiving in life after death or believing in reincarnation ..etc
3. Giving life in general a goal and a sense , and giving everything, good or bad , an explanation. Faithfuls know why we are born, why we die , why life is sometimes so cruel and why we should act in a good not a evil way. Those questions that probably humanity will never answer for sure.
4. and for a religious community I must think about making my children religious, just in order to make them homogenous with their surroundings. I don't want them to face the same Dilemma that their father once faced.

I can't deny that there IS some advantages in religious education.
It's a man's free choice either to be religious or not , but if you rise a child to think scientifically and logically without any boundaries or taboos , he will loose that choice forever, because he will not have the chance to have any true religious faith.

Another point here about Egypt.
I'm so glad to know someone who knew Egypt since the days of king Farook ( the 1940s ) but in fact Egypt has had many major changes since that time, Jazz. We live in a very good era in regard to less religious intolerance and violations to human rights. But we still however, have some problems of course.
Please let me know about what you remember Jazz, and what you've read, Kaz, about what happened in Egypt and I will give you an eyewitness comment about it.

Sorry for the lenght of this post.

Wishing you all the happiness
humble

Hi humble, I get all my country human rights information from http://www.hrw.org
you can search on any country, heres Egypt
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=egypt
The latest on Egypt is their treatment on street children, put into jail and moved out of the area to make the streets look tidier. Also, treatment of gay men is absolutely horrific.

hi humble,

This is my personal take on your four points.

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I am not afraid of tomorrow. In fact, it is always something I quite look foward to. To continue living and learning. I would not want someone looking over me and telling me what to do. I think this is the reason most people leave home when they become adults. So they can live their own lives as they see fit.

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I did a little survey here awhile ago on hootoo, asking people if they were afraid of death. And most Christians answered 'yes'.

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I set my own personal goals. Faithfuls do not *know* why they are born, die, etc. They only *believe* that they know, based on what they are taught.

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Yes, if you decide to stay there it doesn't seem like you will have much choice in the matter unless you want your children to become outcasts.

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It seems this is the whole reason you started this thread. That by making a free choice for yourself you will then be faced with many other uncomfortable decisions. Yes, that *is* free choice. Make a choice and then become responsible for the choice you have made.

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Boundaries are always set within the society we live in. As for allowing a child to think logically and if it thereby loses its 'ability' to blindly believe in a religion . . . um, I don't really see what the problem is there.

az

Humble:

I must comment on: "It's a man's free choice either to be religious or not , but if you rise a child to think scientifically and logically without any boundaries or taboos , he will loose that choice forever, because he will not have the chance to have any true religious faith."

It is not true that those that think in a sceintific and logical manner are forever barred from religion. This concept may be linked to the idea that all scientist are atheist. A false belief that.

One may think scientifically, and logically and still have a strong faith. The difference, at least what I have found, is that coming to religion with a sceintic and logical mind brings more wonder to the faith. Blind adherence to the dogma of the church is never an acceptable path. But recognizing the basis for that dogma, evaluating them and the properly placing them is your understanding of God is a great thing.

If you ever have children, teach them to think for themselves, expose them to religion and allow them to make their choices. Religion and thinking can coexist!

Jay

I think that people follow religions such as christianity so that hey do not have to take responsibility and basically so they don't have to think too much. The church provides a moral (although flawed) path, a meaning to life etc. However it is very easy to gain all that without involving the church.

Choose your morals, logic and science do not deny morals, as morals are logical if yopu think them through. Take some responsibility for your own life, your own morals, your own purpose. Why does anyone need a purpose anyway? Surely to procreate as a species is enough, there is no purpose beyond existing, so make a decision to either make up your own purpose or just enjoy life for what it is.

You can be a sheep and just take what the church gives you and never think or even dare to look outside the box, or take some responsibility and make your own life decisions. Its your life not the churchs.

If like me you decide on a faith later in life, then great. But don't be lazy, choose the faith you love living, not just because it makes your decisions for you.

1) I do find that amongst major religions there is a guilt and salvation cycle of sorts, wheras a doctrine of personal responsibility would almost certainly be a better way to approach things. If you screw up in a damaging way then try to fix it, although if the best option is to leave alone then take that best option.

2) I think fear of death as a survival instinct is present in most people, it is a hard and dangerous thing to repress and I don't think 'getting religion' will do it. But it is just a reaction and a useful one at that; it goes away with the threat.

The other fear of death, I'm not sure how to describe it, but the much more conscious one. Well to me it seems to share a lot of characteristics of an obsession or even a fetish. I don't think its an original part of the human psyche, but something that can be built on the other type. Again I think that accepting your eventual demise and moving on is a lot better than clinging to hope of an afterlife.

3) Surely if you are asking that question and find god then it just changes from "why I am here?" to "why did God put me here?"

I tend to see faith of this sort as a crutch, and standing on your own two feet to be the better options, but the analogy doesn't always hold. There are certain advantages to this way of thinking.

Just give up your religion and become an atheist. We tend to have a smug, superior arogence anyway, so we don't really care what people think of us.

(Unless of course we make a mockery of Christianity like http://www.landoverbaptist.org Then a whole load of Christians will show up and start insulting us, and say that we're going to hell. At which point we take the p**s out of them and point out how like the stereotype they are.)

Thank you all I'll just make some comments,

To Azahar I say
1. <>
That's in fact great , but I don't speak about individual cases but about the human nature in general. Humans get worried sometimes , and scared other times depending on their personaility and the different situations they 're facing.
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I think this survey would need more details, not every Christian is indeed a Faithful. And we all fear death (I think so ) but to different extents. To be faithful doesen't make you fearless toward death , it just decreases it considearbly.
3.<>
Yes I agree with you , but from the faithful's point of view he knows and he is sure , he gains all the fullfilment and the certainity of "knowing" , even if we think about it differently. What really matters is what HE thinks , and he lives and dies with that in mind.
4.<>
The problem is that you will deprive him from those advantages that I've mentioned, that the "blinded " boys may obtain.
But all in all, I agree with you that the most important factor is the fourth " to become an outcast in a primarily religious society"
Thank you very much for your detailed answer .


To Jay I say :
I respect your point of view. but don't you think that the obvious controversy between many BASIC facts in science and religion , may make it more difficult for him to make them " go together " ?

To Kaz I say:
When I choose a faith , should I believe in everything about it ?
Or will I choose what suits me better and throw away what doesen't?
in this case I'm not really BELIEVING , I'm not really FAITHFUL
I may follow the morals of Christianinty looking to it as a human invention, but do not believe that God exists. Is that what you mean ?


To bouncy I say :
1.<>
Yes but I'm not talking about this type of fear, I meant the fear you have when you're so old , and know it's coming. Here the threat is not going to go away. You ask yourself : what's next ? Where am I going to go ? Will I die like an animal and loose any conscious or awareness ? May be I won't even realise what happened.
2.<>
Yes then it has an easier answer , God put you here to test you , if you're obediant you'll earn Heaven ...etc
3.<< but the analogy doesn't always hold>>
I strongly agree with you , regarding your opinions or mine


And to Godben I say :
I don't really see with attacking them as a slution to the problem We will just prove ourselves to be wrong if we do this .

Either I'm a believer or not , I must agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ had tought the humanity love and tolerance, like no one did.

Sorry, the post keeps getting longer
Thanks Very much

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Yet you seem to be getting older by the minute.

Good for you.

az

Hi Humble, I didn't fully understand your point. Not all faiths have a set of rules, mine doesn't. Many faiths encourage you to think and define your own morals and responsibilities within their framework. Abrahamic faiths are quite structured and do not encourage you to think, whereas faiths such as paganism or Buddhism do encourage you to think and not accept rules just because they are there.

If you decide you cannot live life without a faith structure then choose something like christianity to answer your questions for you. However it is quite possible to have a faith which doesn't define your every thought and moral, its up to you what you choose, if you decide to choose any at all.

As for living like a christian and not actually believing in god, then thats a philosophical route and one that some follow even some priests. In the end you only have to answer to yourself, have faith in yourself.