h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Giving up meat was a doddle. But as for giving up ...

Thin doesn't necessarily equal healthy, it can equal malnourished...

I'll drink to that, Kelli!

Never said thin was healthy. Malnourished or really thin people usually don't eat much at all - meat or otherwise ! Curiously I don't know any 'thin' vegetarians either.

I was hoping for a comment on what I wrote earlier, its a dilemma for me and I would appreciate any advice

How would you feel about eating the fruits of plants? By this I mean the seeds of plants produced for their reproduction. These would include, obviously, all true fruits, but also things like beans, peas, lentils and grains. Eating these things is not actually killing the plant, but is akin, I guess, to a veggie eating an egg.

The exploitation apspect is still there, of course, but if you view plants and animals on the same level, you could also include dairy produce in your diet.

In this way, you should get most of the nutrients you need. You could compliment your diet with chemically produced suppliments.

Hope this helps.

Hi Ingisim
thanks for the comments, I'm not actually a vege, cause I don't think its that cut and dried. But eating meat and eggs does sometimes disgust me. But resorting to only eating plants is a bit weird for someone who cries when she sees trees being cut down. Hmmm

I was brought up in a mainly vegetarian community, in fact it was all vegetarian but one boy who we used to bully mercilessly. We were part of a Hindu community. For us it was our culture to regard animals as equal to humans, we used to bury road kill.

I've left home now and I don't think there's anything wrong with eating meat. I no longer avoid cakes containg eggs, and eat sweets with gelatine in. I've tried eating meat one or two times but I just seem to vomit it up agian. The only other thing is that thought I'm not a squeamish person about human dissection (I'm a medical student) I can't touch raw meat without surgical gloves on- it just seems right that I should treat it in the same manner as human flesh.

If I have children they will have to be vegetarian at home because I could never cook meat. I can't even walk past a butchers shop without retching, I would have no idea what do to with it? how do you tell if it's done? you can't break a bit off and eat it like you do with vegetables.

I think it's a cultural issue in our culture eating meat is a disgusting concept, in European culture eating sheep and cows is fine, but eating dogs, cats and horses is a disgusting concept, however these animals are all eaten in other cultures. For people to tell my parents that they are depriving us by not feeding us meat is equivielent to someone of a chinese orgin telling someone of a european culture that they are depriving there children by not letting them eat cat meat. Or telling a Muslim parent that they should feed there child pork.

I don't want to impose my culture on you and I don't want to stop you eating meat- but in return please don't mock my culture, even if it seems stupid to you.

The fact that people in Western cultures eat certain meats not others (it varies, eg the French eat horses) is I believe due to a diluted version of kosher laws that exists in Christianity, basically stating 'don't eat carnivores.' This has been custom so long it has become a vague and unexamined intuition.

This got me thinking about how odd it is that diet is ingrained in culture. Though most people will eat other cultures food, they would never eat the thing that are taboo to their own culture. For example a Hindu will have a vegie burger from Macdonalds, but not a beef burger, most english people will go out for a chinese take away, but not if it contained dog.

I know what you mean, Zed. It really is something you grow up with. Like most Western veggies, and unlike you, I'm an ex-meat eater (hence, incidentally, the demand for substitute meat products). Hypothetically, if I had to eat meat, it would be beef or pork rather than horse or dog.

In my private life I am a vegetarian.

This may sound really pretentious, but I travel a lot, and I also have a wheat intolerance and while I don't froth at the mouth if I eat wheat, it does affect my health, how much energy I have, and my immune system. And who wants to be constantly tired, suffering from colds and infections and be slow and sleepy all day? And as a final spin on it, I prefer to separate carbohydrates from proteins and fats for a whole bunch of reasons.

The wheat is a health issue - the meat is an ethical one. When push comes to shove, I have chosen to put my health before the lives of animals.

If I am at home I eat organic food - pulses, grains, vegetables, fruits, salads, some cheese - not much, and some eggs. I actually eat a wider variety of food than most meat eaters, I mix my proteins (grains with pulses, etc) and when I was tested for vitamin and mineral deficiencies last summer I came out with a perfect score except for a mild folic acid deficiency. And at the time I was not taking any supplements.

If I can manage this kind of eating with 80%+ organic food for more than 2 months I feel great. My energy levels go way up. My emotions are stable. My ability to deal with stress increased. My skin and hair and eyes look good. My nails are strong a few months later. And I feel like I have the opposite of a hangover - clean and full of energy.

But if I am travelling or at work the vegetarian options are 'roasted vegetables with a balsamic dressing' - no protein. Spagetti quattro fromaggio - wheat, and a mix of carbs and fat. Veg samosas - all of the above. And so on and so on and so on.

The only restaurants where I can eat well are Indian restaurants - and this is because of the hindu vegetarian culture.

I play a game with the airlines. I ask for a vegetarian gluten free meal. I get it about one flight in six. I have started filling out comment cards now.

So I have given up and try to focus on the no wheat and food combining. In Bavaria, even this is hard...

I have come to the conclusion that I either need to be a purist or give up trying. Trying and failing is the worst of all worlds.

Ben

Trillian's Child - "This conversation should not be necessary - I look forward to the day when it is no longer something we have to discuss, but just get on and tolerate each other's views."

The point of this discussion was specifically intended to get people's opinions on what they saw as good or bad points to being vegetarian, and *not* whether they thought people *should* be vegetarian. I agree that a world in which people's differences don't have to be the subject of great debate or intolerance is infinitely preferable. However, as I live in a world where I am frequently questioned, judged or deliberately insulted for my choice of vegetarianism, I defend my right (and other people's) to discuss it. Almost invariably, when I tell a non-veggie that I am vegetarian (and I mostly do so when circumstances dictate its neccessity - being vegetarian is part of me, not my whole personality), I receive some 'humorous' remark about meat or cruelty to vegetables.

'Most vegetarians eat fish' is one of those myths I have never understood. Firstly, vegetarians do *not* eat fish... although pescetarians(sp?) do. Feel free to check out the dictionary definition of vegetarian if the 'vegi' part of the word is not clear enough. I think that there is some confusion here due to the general assumption that people who don't eat meat do so for ethical reasons alone.

Back to the point...

Pro - I don't have any difficulty in eating a balanced diet as a vegetarian. In fact, I am certain my diet is healthier because of it. So that counts as a pro in my opinion. Although, I do agree that not eating meat in itself is not enough to guarantee you a 'healthier' diet.

Con - lack of choice when eating out. Most places do offer one or more veggie options these days, which is an improvement on years gone by (there's only so many side salads you can eat, even if you do like salad!), but unless you go to a veggie restaurant, you don't get a wide choice. Anyway, I think you have to be fairly relaxed about eating out, because unless you go to a totally veggie restaurant, there's every chance that your 'vegetarian' meal is not as veggie as you'd like. Two examples here: 1) I recently went to a pub where a vegetarian dish on the menu turned out to have bacon in it (how someone managed to perceive this as 'vegetarian' I can't imagine, and no, I didn't eat it... I didn't even order it because it said it had bacon in on the menu!), and 2) a friend went to a bbq and was pleased to be offered a veggie burger... however they were less enthusiastic when the host proceeded to serve it up, without thought, using the same utensils they had used for meat products!

Con - a lot of places/people seem to think that being veggie = liking spicy food. This is not necessarily the case, especially for children.

Pro - knowing that no animal was raised in repulsive conditions, transported in similarly unpleasant conditions, and inhumanely slaughtered, just so that I can eat its flesh. The 'meat industry' is one of my greatest concerns.

Pro - being at ease with myself. I could grow and harvest vegetables/crops, prepare them for the table, and eat them. I could not do the same with meat - I would not be able to rear and tend to an animal, then slaughter it, and sit down and eat it without feeling repulsion. Buying pre-packaged meat in a supermarket is one thing, but having to do the deed yourself is harder to swallow, so to speak.

I've noticed most of the non-veggies here seem to put forward the 'con' of not being able to eat a balanced diet, due to insufficient protein, or whatever. I don't personally find this to be the case... do any other vegetarians find it difficult to have a balanced diet due to not eating meat? I can imagine eating a balanced diet is more difficult if you are vegan... is it?

Veggie 'bacon' - bacon often seems to be the one thing that veggies, or would-be veggies, miss. It passes. However, so far I would say that the veggie susbstitute is most certainly not one. There are many good 'meat alternatives' on the market, but never try to pass veggie bacon off on a carnivore!

On the whole, I eat the food that tastes good and which I enjoy. I don't choose food because it 'tastes just like meat' and I don't steer away from it because of those claims either.

Pro - for 'meat alternatives' is that it is easier to keep the non-veggies in a household happier.

Pro - veggie 'hotdogs' taste at least as good as the real thing, and probably have as much 'meat' in them as those made from... well, perhaps I'd better not go into the 'meat' content of real hotdogs.

Kaz - re: plants as living things? I think Ingisim's suggestion is one option. There are people who only eat the 'fruits of the Earth' which doesn't involve destroying the source, be it plant or animal. Whether it is possible to get a fully balanced diet that way I don't know. Maybe you should consider your dilemma this way - did the plant/animal that produced your meal have a happy, healthy and natural life before it fed you? A tree being cut down without good reason would bother me too. A living creature being reared in confined, dirty and unnatural conditions, just so I can eat it, bothers me more.

Sus

Agreed.

If it's got a face, I don't eat it

and i'm healthier and happier for it

Right as promised earlier in this thread I've bought some *veggie* bacon, cooked it, eaten it and here are my thoughts.

- looks an alarming orange colour.
- on opnening the packet it smells a little like smokey bacon crisps.
- doesn't change colour when you cook it.
- eating wise it has the texture of hot moist cardboard.
- cost twice the price of the dry cure *real* streaky bacon that I bought at the same time.

- and no I won't be buying it again!

Ahhhh, but which type did you buy?

Quorn's Deli range. It was the only one I could find in Sainsbury's this morning.

Quorn is scorned even by the vegetarians, you should try Rashers, they're fantastic

"Humans have evolved as carnivores."

Sorry to wade in three days down-thread, but look in your mouth. Carnivores have a preponderence of pointy teeth. Omnivores have pointys and flattys. Ruminants have flattys. I leave you to arrive at your own conclusions.

Thing is, humans are different. We think differently, act differently, and live a bit differently. Humans are argumentative and sometimes insecure or oversensitive -- this leads to rude comments when polite ones will do.

In the US, I haven't heard as many outright attacks on vegetarians as those reported from Europe and Britain; probably because veggies are rarer here or just quieter. I don't like to eat meat every day; it makes me feel sluggish and sleepy. But I will have some chicken once or twice a week, usually as a stir fry, not a big piece of it. I think I get a balanced diet, since mixing legumes and grains is a piece of (peanut butter on rice) cake. Or red beans and rice. Or...

If everyone agreed with me, I'd be sadly under-entertained.

SC

The US doesn't seem to have as strong a vegetarian community as say, the UK for example, but I know there are some out there! What is the general American attitude to veggies, I've always wondered?