h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is somewhere between a letter appropriate to an advice column and an open invitation to philisophical discourse.

I live in a pretty conservative mid-western city in the US. Most folks here are Christians of some stripe who have probably never had a friend or even co-worker who is Jewish, let alone Buddhist or anything more exotic. I'm an atheist. Although I positively believe that there is not nor ever has been any higher intelligence that created the universe, that isn't even the point. I'm a non-theist. I don't know for a fact, and what's more, I don't care.

I am, however, a person of integrity, ethical standards, generosity and humor. As good as any Christian or other person of faith, dammit. I feel as if I have a dirty secret. I've learned what a hot-button issue atheism is for a lot of people, and the pointlessness of the ensuing discussions, so I don't announce my (non)beliefs out of context - how pushy and obnoxious and "protests too much" would *that* be? - and in fact I never respond to a casual comment or question from a mere acquaintance with any more detail than it takes to be honest. For instance, I had no plans for Easter because I'm "not a Christian", I don't attend any church at all because I'm "not religious", etc. Only with people who are developing into real friends do I come all the way out regarding my atheism. This works very well in that it allows me to avoid arguments and discussions with people whose opinion I don't desire and whom I have no interest in enlightening, but it leaves me feeling even more alienated from the mainstream than the mainstream appears to mean me to be (I think).

My stepdaughters live with their mother and spend most Friday nights with us. Their mother is rearing them in the bosom of the Lutheran church. She teaches in the Lutheran high school that the older girl attends. The same girl is now looking at college choices and taking tours of Lutheran Teachers' Colleges and such. I have a horror of her never stepping out into the real world at all. I don't have any special influence or credibility with the older girl, in particular - she just thinks I'm eccentric in a dorky way - so my ethical dilemma where she is concerned is probably academic, but it is, of course, whether to volunteer my opinion, unasked, about the context of her life. I've never wanted to become an issue with them and their mother, so I've never told them that I'm an atheist, although they obviously know we don't go to church or pray or display any other overtly religious behavior.

How should I view my place in society? What should I tell the girls?

Hi Tegan

Well for a start you can begin calling yourself something else, because you are not an atheist. An atheist is a heads-down-no-nonsense disbeliever. You admit to not knowing or caring. Therefore you could call yourself, more accurately, an agnostic. An agnostic is one who holds the view that any ultimate reality is unknown, probably unknowable.

Your story saddens me so much. It feels like a story from the middle-ages. Isn't freedom of thought and speech written into your countries constituton?

You seem to have kept the peace up to yet. It keeps everybody else happy, but not you. 'Coming out' would cast you as the wicked stepmother.

My father is a Methodist Minister. I am a part time agnostic, part time pagan. We get on great. We never discus religion, just everday things that bond people.

I can only suggest that you tell them that you are not interested in becoming a Christian. If they have any respect for you they will accept this. If they thrust forward crucifixes, and call you Beelzibub's Sporn....

Have you ever considered moving?

I'm really sorry I couldn't be more help. Roy Harper once sang "You Christians destroyed my tribe. I'll fight you 'til I die."

Sometimes we need help with the fight.

Dave.

As regards your concern about the girls going to the lutherian collage, I would frame the discourse in terms of considering other options as well, perhaps from a viewpoint of getting other perspectives for the teaching experience.
Regarding your lack of religion, good for you. Considering where you live, I would treat being open about it the same way as if you were having a same sex, cross race, cross religion relationship. be discrete, tell the people who matter when they can handle it, or when they need to know, otherwise keep my opinions to myself. unlike the devout we have no need to broadcast our beliefs (or lack of them).
I hope that this helps.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and way of thinking. That's what makes us individual. I think that whatever happens, you should communicate your feelings so that they can make their own choices.

Thanks to all three of you for your posts. I've been noodling around in other parts of h2g2 all day, trying to gather myself to respond to you-all properly, and I see I'm just not going to manage it today, but I did want to say that I'm touched by your interest and thoughtful comments. I will do it right next week. Meanwhile, thanks again.

Tegan[-1+(7^2)-2-0-4=42]
"Life does not cease to be funny when people die
any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh."
-- George Bernard Shaw

nontheist is a perfectly good name to take if you don't know and don't care - agnosticism is normally associated with someone who doesn't know, but does care. And there's nothing lying about saying you're "not religious" - if that's what you're not: it's as good a description as any, and not as poncy as "nontheist"...

I know many people who are similar in this respect, treating religion as a "waste of time", and suchlike. You're certainly not alone: though they don't tend to make their present felt in religious debates because, well, they don't care. Your place in society? Well, the same as anyone else of a religion. There are many ways of relating to you're fellow man: religion, sports, politics, clubs, hobbies, etc, etc...

As for your stepdaughters... well, tell them the truth. If they ask, say that you don't care about religion - if that's your genuine feelings on the matter. If they don't ask, don't bother. It's not as if you care about it, right?

As for the danger of your eldest being "swallowed up" - well, just listen to her. Don't give your opinions: ask her questions - don't be judgemental and damning. Some people genuinely can't cope with the real world, maybe your daughter is one. On the other hand, maybe she hasn't considered it: a question like "are you worried about not getting to see the 'real world'"? might work.

HEAR HEAR!!!!!

What is it that prevents someone who has attended a religious high school and college from "stepping out into the real world"?

Also, this discussion feels a mite hypocritical, especially in remarks by Dave. If you believe that everyone has a right to exercise his beliefs, why are you "fighting" against people who happen to be Xian?

My advice is just take things at their face value: don't assume that the Lutheran schools are bad just because they're Lutheran, and don't assume that people will deride you for your beliefs. Most people who value you will be okeh with it.

--Cooper

Oh I'm a hypocrit alright Cooper. Can't help that. Part of my nature. I'm a two faced Gemini. What I can't stand are hypocritcal Christians. Preach one thing; do another. Love everyone; if they think like you. I do not try to convert people to my beliefs. Christians do.

It's dangerous to generalize. I know loads of Christians that are nice gentle harmless people, but there are those who crave power. The Evangelical Right of America. The Vatican.

For thousands of years now the Christians have had power. They have misused that power over peoples lives. The 'fight' is a metaphoricle fight of the mind. I have the right to believe any thing I want to believe. It saddens me to think that Tegan feels she hasn't got that right.

True, many Xians have used the Xian faith to gain power. But this is not unique.

The Romans used religion as a tool to gain new territory; the Islamic empires of 600s-1800s used religion to subjugate; the USSR essentially made atheism a religion and used it to centralise and maintain power; industrial progress currently has the world in its grip. The point is: any belief system, religious or not, has the possibility of being misused.

As for trying to convert people to your belief system, sure you do. If my friend tells me the sky is green, and I know the sky is blue, I'm going to try to get him to see the blueness of the sky. If someone believes that the Earth is flat, I will attempt to convince her that it is indeed round.

Why fight against Xians? Why not just let the good Xians be and fight against tyranny?

--Cooper

because part of the tyrany is the beleif of the cult of the cross that everyone has the right to hear their beleifs, even if it has to be on the point of a sword. Any beleif system that is not objective, and does not allow for other beleifs, is by it's very nature a tyrany.

Then all beliefs must be tyrannical. I challenge that there is no belief system that does not at its very core argue that at least one other belief system (its opposite) is not true.

If one thinks that something isn't true, then one should certainly enlighten those who disagree. One can certainly let those whom he feels to be ignorant go on believing what they want to, but he should at least try to convince them.


Also, there is no tenet of the Xian faith that encourages swordpoint conversions. Xianity teaches that general knolwedge of the Gospel will get out without our intervention, but that Xians should take an active role in convincing people.

Xianity primarily is about Love. Loving people don't threaten to kill each other unless they believe something.

Base your judgement on the doctrine, on the beliefs, and not on the actions. No one is perfect; therefore no one can be a perfect example of any belief system.

--Cooper

Are you an X-Man, Coop?

If I were God, and in a way I am, as everything has to be, if you believe that sort of thing, which I do, but only on Wednesday mornings, and then only if I'm in the mood, but as I was saying; if I were God and I'd set all this creation stuff in motion, I would not want anybody/anything to praise/worship me for it. After all I did it for my own benefit. Being the one, omnipotant, infinate dude, gets to be mighty boring and lonely after....well...after no time at all. Mind numbingly awful it is. So....Let there be entertainment!
One pretty damn impressive universe later, and here we are. Heaven and Hell all on the same planet. Makes me weep just thinking about it.

One thing that I find useful when faced with an evangelical Christian is to say 'God's love/Jesus's love is unconditional, right?' (the technically correct Christian answer to that is 'yes'). Therefore, I say that if the love for me is unconditional then it is just fine with them whether I believe or not. It usually works - or at least gives them enough pause to change the subject.

I also think that no 'real' Christian or person who really understands any faith would fight another with words or wars. The 'tyranny' is the tribal aspect which is locked onto faith as in 'my way of doing it/believing is the only way.' The ego-function is duality and the divine function is unity so if you're going to have a faith/religion you can only really 'do' it properly by happily allowing others to have their faith/non faith. Bit like the Dalai Llama really.

Also, if God is perfect in every way, and jeolousy is a sin, then why is God so jealous that if you don't worship him then you spend eternity in torment? And wouldn't you have to be really evil anyway to make billions of people spend eternity in Hell?

Hitler was a Christian. Gandhi wasn't. According to fundamentalists, non-Christians go to hell. According to fundamentalists, Gandhi went to hell.

My humblest apologies to Christian Hikers for trashing your religion.

I consider myself a Xian.

Hitler, contrary to popular belief, wasn't a Xian. In fact, one of his major beefs with the Jews was that Judaism gave rise to Xianity.

Also, God's rules apply to us, and to to him. All sins are the same in that they are rebellion from God. Therefore worshipping other gods is a sin, and not worshipping God is a sin.

As for Hell, I don't believe in it as a place: the Bible carries little mention of it as such. Hell is simply separation from God, imposed by humans through sin.

I believe that both Hitler and Gandhi are separated from God. Both sinned, and neither accepted the free grace of Christ; therefore neither can have a perfect union with God.

--Cooper

Sin is a conscious choice to be separate from God. To overcome it and be one with God again, one must accept Christ's intercession. Otherwise, the intercession carries no weight because it has been refused, either by silence or by active refusal.

It's like a house with only one door. You can know the door's there, but if you don't walk through it, you're still outside. Likewise, if you don't know it's there or refuse to acknowledge its presence, you're outside.

--Cooper

slight snag here, if your interpretation is correct, everyone having a version of christianity different from yours is sinning, as it is worshiping a false god, but if they have never come across your version, then by your interpretation, they are not making a conscious choice to be seperate from god, and are thus not sinning, but are in for eternal damnation for not actively choosing your version of christianity. If I am summarising you wrong, then please point out where, but it does seem that you need to go and have another look at your definitions

>I feel as if I have a dirty secret.
>Only with people who are developing into real friends do I come all the way out regarding my atheism.

Gah! I can't believe that! That you should feel like that is really weird. I am a lesbian, and I don't expect at all to be treated like that or feel that way, because everybody's come so far now.

and cooper...

>Therefore worshipping other gods is a sin,

I thought the commandment was Thou shalt not have any gods before me, and so therefore you can have other gods, just not any that you regard as better, or that you are more loyal to. Does anyone know where I could possibly have picked that thought up from? I must have read it somewhere...

Yeh I have to agree with Cooper on this one. Hitler was definately not a Christian.