A Conversation for Objectivism: Abstract Art
Peer Review: A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Started conversation Sep 21, 2003
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 21, 2003
Interesting, but unconvincing. You're saying that abstract art is not true art. In doing so, you're attacking a huge number of modrn artists and their work, as well as the millions of people who respond to abstract works as if they are art. If you're going to do such a thing, you ought at least to have a good case. But while your point of view may be valid point one, I really don't understand why you agree with it. If you were to retitle your piece "What Objectivism says about art", it might be OK. But you are actually trying to argue the case for the objectivist stance, and I am not convinced by it.
You introduce a dictum at the end of your piece:
"That is the fundamental purpose of art – to bring concepts down to the perceptual level and in doing so allow men to grasp them as though it was a precept."
Why so? Nothing in your previous paragraphs demonstrates that this idea must be true. As far as I can tell, you agree with this statement simply because Ayn Rand said it. This is not good enough; treating a philosopher's words as if they are the word of god is neither objectivist nor logical.
Here is a statement from me:
"True art is whatever you want it to be. It can be about bringing concepts down to a perceptual level, or it can be about creating beautiful patterns with no inherent meaning. Either way, it is still art, because art is simply that which an artist thinks is beautiful or important." - (The Singing Badger, 2003)
If you can explain why I am wrong, and why Ayn Rand is right, your article will be far more interesting.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Posted Sep 22, 2003
You ask why: "bringing concepts down to the perceptual level and in doing so allow men to grasp it asthough it were a precept" is the purpose of art.
This may seem like a bad argument, but I think it is the easiest way to get my point across to you: what other purpose could art have? You say, to give men pleasure - but that is done exactly by bringing their metaphysics down to the perceptual level.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Z Posted Sep 22, 2003
This is a fascinated conversation, and I do hate to interupt, and point out that this is an opinion piece, albeit an well argued and objective one. And according to the writing guidelines then pieces for the edited guide have to be balanced.
Perhaps you should submit this to the AWW where the UG people are looking for well written entries that don't fit the writing guidlines.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 22, 2003
Z: you have a point, although don't you think the piece might work as a guide entry if it was rewritten as "What Objectivists Say About Art", rather than as an opinion piece?
244552: as Z has pointed out, edited guide entries need to be balanced; in other words, you need to include alternative points of view. In your case, you would need to explain what abstract artists believe about art. So my queries about your ideas are meant to be helpful!
As I understand it, you're saying that abstract art is not true art because it doesn't represent concepts. I reply that it is true art, because it's pretty. You respond that if it gives me pleasure then it must be because my metaphysics have been brought to a perceptual level. We seem to have a contradiction: either abstract art brings concepts to a perceptual level or it doesn't. Which is it to be?
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Posted Sep 22, 2003
Look, but this is the last time I am going to say it - art is pretty because it brings a man's basic metaphysical value-judgements and allows him to grasp them asthough it was a precept. There is no other valid reason why art could be considered beatiful.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Posted Sep 22, 2003
Look, but this is the last time I am going to say it - art is pretty because it brings a man's basic metaphysical value-judgements and allows him to grasp them asthough it was a precept. There is no other valid reason why art could be considered beatiful.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Posted Sep 22, 2003
Look, but this is the last time I am going to say it - art is pretty because it brings a man's basic metaphysical value-judgements and allows him to grasp them asthough it was a precept. There is no other valid reason why art could be considered beatiful.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Researcher 244552 Posted Sep 22, 2003
Sorry that my last post was repeated twice, it was a computer glitch.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 23, 2003
Nonsense, there are plenty of other reasons. For example, we could say that a Mondrian painting is pretty because it organises colours into carefully composed patterns thereby instilling a sense of harmony in the viewer. That's got nothing to do with metaphysical concepts but it certainly describes why I think Mondrian paintings are pretty.
I'm not denying the POSSIBLE validity of your suggestion. I just don't think it's as obviously true as you think it is, and I don't see why you think other possibilities are logically invalid.
And I don't have a problem with people theorizing about art. It's fun. I just don't see why you would label it 'Objectivism', when as far as I can see it is merely your subjective opinion.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Florida Sailor All is well with the world Posted Sep 23, 2003
Hi Badger
just my
Ayn Rand used the term "objectivism" to describe her views on the world. I suspect that the title and views expressed are intended to bolster Ayn's views on art, although personaly I am more familiar with her stand on religion and economics.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 23, 2003
Yeah, I've vaguely heard about Rand and her philosophy, although I don't know the details (as I understand it, the basic thrust is 'religion is bad, capitalism is good' right?)
Why did Rand choose the name 'Objectivism'? Is it because she believes there are objective truths, or is she using the word in some other sense? The gentleman who posted the article seems to think that it's OK to make blanket statements about the world and then say that things could not possibly be otherwise; this could be described as 'objectivism' with a small 'o', but I'm not sure what its value is in a debate ...
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Florida Sailor All is well with the world Posted Sep 23, 2003
You have the gist of it, Ayn and her family fled the Bolshevik revolution when she was quite young and I think that colored her philosophy.
There is an edited entry that gives the highlights;
A455311
Her movement involves intellectualisam and I am sure she thought her views the only ones that were objective. So do most of her followers.
An interesting study, but hardly an answer to 42.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 24, 2003
Interesting... thanks for the link. Right-wing libertarianism, gottit! Well, I think the moral is that Objectivism is all very well, but not a useful tool with which to write an encyclopedia entry. More subjectivism, please, 244552!
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge") Posted Sep 25, 2003
It's worse than right wing libertarianism. "Objectivists" think that it is morally wrong to give money to charity, or to help strangers. Not just that there's no duty to do it, nor just that the state shouldn't do it, but that it's morally wrong for individuals to do it.
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
The Singing Badger Posted Sep 25, 2003
Blimey. I wonder whether a true Objectivist would approve of voluntary, helpful, altruistic peer reviewers who give up their time to help their fellow writers?
A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
Geggs Posted Nov 21, 2003
I don't know, why do people....
Oh, it wasn't a joke line, sorry, I misunderstood.
Shall we move this over to the Flea Market?
Geggs
Key: Complain about this post
Peer Review: A1296010 - Objectivism: Abstract Art
- 1: Researcher 244552 (Sep 21, 2003)
- 2: The Singing Badger (Sep 21, 2003)
- 3: The Singing Badger (Sep 21, 2003)
- 4: Researcher 244552 (Sep 22, 2003)
- 5: Z (Sep 22, 2003)
- 6: The Singing Badger (Sep 22, 2003)
- 7: Researcher 244552 (Sep 22, 2003)
- 8: Researcher 244552 (Sep 22, 2003)
- 9: Researcher 244552 (Sep 22, 2003)
- 10: Researcher 244552 (Sep 22, 2003)
- 11: The Singing Badger (Sep 23, 2003)
- 12: Florida Sailor All is well with the world (Sep 23, 2003)
- 13: The Singing Badger (Sep 23, 2003)
- 14: Florida Sailor All is well with the world (Sep 23, 2003)
- 15: The Singing Badger (Sep 24, 2003)
- 16: Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge") (Sep 25, 2003)
- 17: The Singing Badger (Sep 25, 2003)
- 18: Cyzaki (Nov 1, 2003)
- 19: Geggs (Nov 21, 2003)
- 20: GreyDesk (Nov 21, 2003)
More Conversations for Objectivism: Abstract Art
Write an Entry
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a wholly remarkable book. It has been compiled and recompiled many times and under many different editorships. It contains contributions from countless numbers of travellers and researchers."