h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

" I've spent the last two hours catching up on backlogs on various threads. I don't know who I'm talking to anymore.

Sorry."

me too, but it's morning here. What's your excuse

I agree, apparition. Maybe I'm obtuse, but I don't see the US as the big power that many seem to see. The news reports keep saying that the US military is overstretched just dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan (and, remember, they're getting a lot of help in both of those places.) And, economically, the EU can certainly give it a run. For goodness sake, the Canadian economy despite being hamstrung by its ties to the US has been outperforming the American economy for years. I've heard some economic reports lately that suggest that the US has the economy of a "banana republic". (now I'll have to find a reference for that) But, that's really more blah blah than necessary. I think the point was supposed to be that the US can bring its military and economic might to bear on the UN and strategic members more quickly than the UN would be able to mount a similar offensive: and so, effectively, the US has greater power.

Oh, and Apparition, I believe I've posted enough about my personal situation in places around here to provide an excuse for being a little dazed. (gotta go get the disabled kid hosed off so I can get a bit of sleep before I go back to that full time job again tomorrow. Ah, single parenthood.)

Might I suggest this is more relevent to:
F124615?thread=310905
which is entitled The UN...
Though I admit to helping bring it up here

Math

"'The US has economic and defense forces the UN cannot hope to match' - you wouldn't be confusing singular power with the combined world would you?

The USA is not more power than the world. It is agrubaly more powerful than any *single* state.

The previous is a missconception that causes many problems, I think."

The fallacy here is the assumption that the UN is the entire world. The UN is an entity all its own. Its economic power is the dues paid to it and what charitable contributions it can raise, a pittance compared to the US national budget. And it has no market of its own to gain access to. Additionally, the UN has no forces of its own, save what few it can coax out of member states for specific missions. Except in the unlikely event of a mass, united front against the US, the UN cannot hope to match the military power of the United States.

In the utilization of these tools of influence, the UN cannot match the US. It must use other tools.

Blatherskite! Stop it! You can't keep agreeing with me!

Hi, I'm limited for time, so I'll just reply to direct questions:

App,

'"(not sure about Canada and NZ, but I assume so)" why do you assume so? if we from Canada or NZ assume anything about the US then there is no shortage of people here in h2g2 to jump on us. Defend your assumption and by it you lumping of a diverse group. - does that sound familiar ste?'

I am assuming that because of this history of the US is different than tat of Europe, NZ, Canada, or any other country. It has representatives of every culture, race, and opinion on the planet. It wasn't an assumption that lumped a diverse group together (the non-US world), rather an assumption based upon the US.


'"Stupid isolated event.", "Isolated horrific incident." - you're an 'intelligent man ste. What do you call a grouping of 'isolated events'?'

The comments were with respect to free speech and should be taken in that context. The soldiers were not trying to systematically silence people. They were angry and bitter about being targets of hate in a viciously anti-military environment when all they could see is that they were doing their patriotic duty.


'"But you don't do you? It goes further. You make it sound like it's the UN or something." - that almost sounds like you're saying the US is more diverse than the 191 member UN'

No, the point wasn't anything to do with diversity, but the tone of the discussion. It was argued that some comments were innocent, neutral questions regarding US foreign policy when they were in fact emotive, angry, comments which would do nothing but poliarise opinion and start a flaming competition. The UN has a repututation for keeping the peace and using discussion to solve problems, hence the comment.


'Sorry ste, honestly I'm not picking on you.'

Fair enough

'These's a lot to read from overnight and I'm getting back to it. I don't know if I'll stick around though as I see blatherskite is further down the page.'

Give him a chance, dude. You both seem to rub each other the wrong way but I know for a fact he'll stay on topic and polite if treated with respect.





Jodan said:

'You don't need a chairperson - just an ACE with some free time'

Now that's a bloody good idea.

Though Math said:

'On the idea of a chair person, is it not accepted that anyone seeing flamming or whatever you might wish to call it, will comment, and hopefuly such will be sufficient reminder to be polite and keep emotional content to a minimum ?'

Yeah, it is accepted.

'Though perhaps it should be clearly stated that stepping into a mess along those lines is acceptable, if not expected.'

Perhaps this could be added to the ODS house rules.


Ste

Blatherskite earlier this thread said:
"But I think we do have to propose a bit of structure to initial questions, to prevent this sort of thing from happening again."
I'd like to second this idea
Though I suggest rather than a set of rules (there to be broken ), a request for clear and unbiased questions, or as close as we can make them.

Math

Thirded, though we don't want to scare people off, also. It's been a little quiet in here of late...

"I am assuming that because of this history of the US is different than tat of Europe, NZ, Canada, or any other country. It has representatives of every culture, race, and opinion on the planet."

The US is not different in that respect. Many countries are diverse. In fact NZs gold rush happened just after the californian gold rush and many came from california here. Last year a highschool in Auckland held it's own world games because every country on earth was represented in the student body. Our first real primeminister was a russian immigrant (something that cannot happen in the US due to a xenophobic clause in their constitution).

So would you like to rephrase america's uniqueness?

*******

"They were angry and bitter about being targets of hate in a viciously anti-military environment when all they could see is that they were doing their patriotic duty."

therein lies a problem with this whole type of discussion. Did those soldiers stop to consider that it was the actions of the military and not necessarilythe military itself being protested? On a smaller scale it happens here in threads and I don't need to elaborate.

*********

" but I know for a fact he'll stay on topic and polite if treated with respect." - I wish I could say I belive that from experience. But like you say. I'll give it a chance.

For now I've decided to be the picky-police. I'll have people being very clear if it kills 'em

Somebody's still here, I see. I'm just popping in for a minute before I head off to rest. I really do hope it stays civil. And I also hope, with apparition, that it stays very precise. I set a bad example with the first post. Sorry.

Goodnight.

'So would you like to rephrase america's uniqueness?'

No, as I still think that the US is the most diverse country in the world, in California white people are no longer in a majority. The US is a country made by, and made up of immigrants. The immigration is still happening, the borders are open and the population of the US is projected to grow to about 450M in the next 50 years because of this.
US: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=01000US&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1
NZ: http://www.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/092edeb76ed5aa6bcc256afe0081d84e/553e95d870abb153cc256b1e0080ad44?OpenDocument

...continued

'therein lies a problem with this whole type of discussion.'

What is this problem, specifically?

'Did those soldiers stop to consider that it was the actions of the military and not necessarilythe military itself being protested?'

I'm not the soldiers, so I do not know.

'On a smaller scale it happens here in threads and I don't need to elaborate.'

I think you do because you point is unclear.


Ste

I didn't really go to sleep.

Just for fun:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Canada


http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=USA

I actually sat and counted for a while but I soon realized that it is very difficult to compare with these lists. They list about 80 First Nations languages for Canada and about 165 for the US. For Canada they lump all languages from the Indian Subcontinent together and for the US they list them individually. In any case, they both demonstrate a great diversity. I wouldn't want to swear who comes out on top.



Others might like to check out their country of origin as well. I suspect most will be surprised by their own diversity.


"the borders are open" Well, not absolutely wide open. Check out this question on the Immigration Services' eligibility quiz:

http://www.usais.org/preq17.php

I realize that pretty much every country has restrictions and limitations and quotas and preferences. Just trying to be precise.

And check out Russia!

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Russia

They had to divide it into two sections, for goodness sake!

"I'm not the soldiers, so I do not know." then why did you speak to their motives earlier?

from your link, with seven year old information I might add. It has many flaws.

"People who were born in New Zealand made up 82.5 percent of New Zealand's resident population at the 1996 Census, a slight decrease from 1991." - if you had looked to recent news you'd see that many immigrants come here on a travel visa and give birth here under our free natal healthcare service. The chile has a NZ birth cirtificate and the parents and family immigrate as family of the child.

They don't show in these stats. I mean, hell. I have to concentrate through accents to have a conversation over morning coffee.

anhaga, " For Canada they lump all languages from the Indian Subcontinent together and for the US they list them individually."

The same thing happens here. On ste's list european is a group. What people don't know is that in New Zealand if you have white skin, you are grouped as european.

The difference is US self promotion.

The stuff I was linking to is all from the same site. It's an academic site that is getting its information where it can and so there are some inconsistencies of presentation. I don't suspect there is any intention to mislead at ethnologue.

I should clarify that the link of ste's that I was referring to was this one.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/092edeb76ed5aa6bcc256afe0081d84e/553e95d870abb153cc256b1e0080ad44?OpenDocument

We go one step worse than Canada does. On official stats Asian means china, japan, indonesia, sri lanka, india, pakistan etc.

Our government not only represents different nations but also three sexes

Is there a site on this site which is not prejudiced. What have you guys been upto for the last 25yrs. Oh yes, I know, living in a free world!