h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I personally, when asked by my 4 year old daughter a few years ago whether so & so was in heaven, fell back on the truth - I don't know! I amy not think its very likely that they are, but since I have no positive proof that they are not . . .

As mentioned elsewhere, tried to get her to make up her own mind based on what we know, can see, and find it comforting to believe.

That's what I'm talking about!

I don't have children myself, but if and when I do, that's very much the attitude I will strive to adopt. I feel that is the only fair way, from the point of view of the children- we have so many people trying to tell us what to think and feel- politicians, advertisers etc- that it must be the duty of the parent to teach a child to be open minded and inquisitive without being unjustly discriminating.

TK

I just love the way people who don't have children know all the correct answers.

Bookmark these threads and return to them when your children are about 12.

There's been lots of threads arguing about God - the sheer frequency with which the topic arises amongst thinking people is incredible. I believe it is important to give children the flexibity to face the challenges the world will throw at them. This means they must be prepared to accept new ideas without discarding the principles they live by.

God is not the easy answer - God is the hard answer.

I haven't said I know all the answers, correct or otherwise. I'm just stating an opinion, just like everyone else is.

I haven't made any judgements about how people bring up their children, and I haven't tried to force my views on anyone- just expressed my views that they should be treated as human beings and given the chance to learn and develop their own opinions, views and beliefs without having petty discriminations tought to them as being inalienably "right". If anyone disagrees with me, then that's their opinion- they have a right to state it, but again using unrelated discriminations (i.e, I am not a parent) is a bit off- I am able to have views on human rights as much as the next person, whether they've had children or not.

It's a sad fact that a lot of people WITH children don't know any of the answers either.

Funny, you made a comment against me, then made a statement where you agreed with me, if only at a basic level. Just an observation.

Anyway, this isn't an argument, it's a discussion.

TK

To say when you're a parent you'll understand sounds patronising, but its the truth.

I wasn't having a go, before I had children I knew all the answers too, and my comment wasn't against you specifically, or against anyone in particular, its just a question of positioning. Its only when its your child stood in front of you, and all your love and concern and insecurities are flooding back around you, and they're looking at you with all this love and expectation, that you truley comprehend how awesome a childs mind can be, and how much hangs upon the answer you give.

When your 5 year old faces you and says "Daddy, is Santa real ? Because Dorothy says he doesn't exsist and its just your Mummy and Daddy." Then all the clever and moral stuff just goes to the wall. You long to pick her up and hug her and say of course Santa's real - then go round and sew up Dorothy's mouth - but you can't. You think about saying, "Thats because Dorothy's a naughty girl so Santa won't come to her house." But inside you know that Dorothy's mother is an insufferable prig who is rude about everyone, and describes it as being honest. So you kneel down and say "Of course Mummy and Daddy give you presents at Christmas, they give each other presents as well, but Santa is as real as you want him to be, and as long as just one little girl believes in Santa, then children all over the world will get presents."

Its not true, as the present giving isn't dependant upon Santa, but it gives a re-assurance to your child that Christmas is magical and special and not just about toys, or television, or turkey, but about family and loving, and its alright to be excited and happy.

- -Sorry to go on.

(sound of me slapping myself round the head)

Sorry, my remark wasn't aimed at you in particular (I'm getting cross-threaded) but I myself used to assume what I stated up till very recently. Some of my friends and acquaintances also hold similar views. Very sad, but true.

I try to speak from experience but obviously what I've seen will be different to you.

I wasn't intending to imply you were some sort of ignorant bigot and can only say sorry for not making sure I understood your post properly.

*mutters about not posting to H2G2 when suffering from PMT-induced grumpiness*

I think that creative fictional stories, whether they're about Santa, elfs, bible stories or even golgafrinchams, are not only a source of fun and entertainment, but a brilliant way towards understanding abstract concepts about our own nature and the nature of our environment. That is, the outer world we experience directly, and it's inhabitants, and also the inner world of our thoughts and imagination. The integrations of all this, and more, are the unique properties that set humans' minds apart.

I have always tried to engender in my kids, now aged 11,13 and 15, a love of imaginative fiction and think that they value the insights that can come from using novel characters, situations,and narratives (or lack thereof), to explore ideas in a no rules way .

I have also tried to show my kids the importance of, and respect for critical enquiry when trying to get at the truth/facts.

It is vital to be able to tell the difference between fact and imagination, without that ability our perception can become schizophrenic. The tangible and intangible, are it seems, complimentary, and in our complex lives, maybe as important as each other. Niether should be neglected, nor however should the distinction between them be allowed to become blurred, for then they lose their integrity and their power.

Bringing up children should be full of fun and games, they are great for learning and love and if taught with care, kids grow up using versatile and accurate minds.

eggs rosi

"We need such people to flip our burgers, empty our bins..."etc etc

Hoovooloo- didn't you get into trouble for making that statement in a thread some time ago??

Still, good to see it again- made me larf.. I tend to agree, but i've given up making such controvercial statements in 'real life'. I found the arguments it caused were more hassle than they were worth- i'm just looking for an easy life these days..

"didn't you get into trouble for making that statement"

Hmm. Let me see... you know, I can't remember. I get into trouble for so MANY things, it's hard to keep track.

I do actually say such things IRL occasionally, but there's a trick to saying them in such a way that people 50% believe you're saying it just to be controversial and don't really believe it, and 50% believe you DO believe it and are therefore a heretic/misogynist/racist/fascist/communist/onanist/whatever.

Plus saying such things is an excellent way to steer conversation away from dull subjects like children, jobs, Big Brother and cars.

H.

Unfortunately, no matter how hard i try, my tone of voice always seems to come across as condescending, or arogant, or something... or so i've been told anyway

But i do like to shock people occasionally, especially when the conversation is heading along the lines of 'oh did you see big brother last night... don't you think he needs a haircut... oh look the sun is trying to come out...'

Yes, it is satisfying to casually drop into conversations like that things like "Yeah, i think folk should be put down at 60- it should be the law- a drain on the NHS that's what these bleedin old folk are.."

Two things to add to this. The second is on the off-shoot topic of stupid people.

1) My parents were both religious but neither raised me religiously. The extent of my religious upbringings was saying grace at Thanksgiving and Christmas. But since my parents were indecisive my friends parent all tried to convert me. I had a Morman Mom giving me cookies and scriptures, a Johovas Witness Dad giving me 'talks', a Muslim man tring to educate me in the true religion, and various other religious groups and vying for my aallegiance. This confused me to no end and caused me many worries. In my opinion giving your child a rough religious structure is a good thing and you should let the kid fill in the gaps with their own choises.

2) Yes the world is full of stupid people but there are intelligent people too, and they appear in the most unlikly of places. One of my good friends is a custodian from my old high school, his job is crap but he is one of my most intellectual friends. Also being stupid is okay, if annoying. As long as you're a nice person that is all that really matters. One of my friends is very, well . . . slow, but she is really sweet and generous, and people who look down on her try to take advantage of her, and thats sucks. She shouldn't have to be on the look-out for bad people attracted to her by her lack of intellegence and fair amount of money. People who know better should help those that don't, but NOT in a condecending way.

Having read the whole entire thread just now I have these things to add.

I myself am still a child. I'm 16, which is technically still a minor and so I'll try to put this from a juvenile position.

I was brought up in the sort of environment where your father is agnostic, your mother is VERY firmly atheist, and yet you have still been mysteriously forced to join the Girl's Brigade because your mother's friend runs it.

I know that my first introductions to religion were at school, where colouring in pictures of various scenes from the Bible was the extent.
At that age we were not shown any other paths apart from Christianity and it took me a while to realise there actually WAS anything else!
However once I had noticed this, I embarked on a PROJECT.
Aided by my parents, I found out as much as I could about all the major religions that came easily to hand, and a few more obscure ones for the fun of it. I went to as many different types of services as I could, and with as many different people as I could find.

Whilst this study didn't cause me to take a religion myself (i like to be open-minded), it did give me the insight to be able to converse with more interest with people of different religions. At the time it would have also given me the available sources to make my own decision about whether i wanted to join one way of religion or another.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that from a kid's point of view, religion can be a really boggy patch of ground, especially with all the wars that occur because of "religious differences". Helping your child find out more about different religions when they become intrigued and questioning could be a very good way of sorting this out. They are doing the work themselves, under their own motivation but you are there to give them that helping hand.


Also on the subject of stupid people (wonderful intermixing there), I wouldn't like to catagorise people, seeing as I'm at that age where many of my friends ar flipping burgers, and I myself work checking out groceries. Through exam period I was also helping many of the people in my year with revision that I felt was stupidly easy. I still did it though because they were nice people. The people I didn't like, regardless of their intelligence, were not helped in any way.

I think this might be the longest post I've ever done! I hope it was relevent to you all.

That was a great post Happysuggs

Keep your open mind, explore it and all its possibilities.

Your parents sound ?. Maybe the Girl's Brigade experience helped you in developing your good understanding and respect for different kinds of people and ideas.

eggs
rosi

Having thought about it I suppose they are quite . If annoying at times, and possibly about to divorce.

The Girl's Brigade did nothing but to confuse me and give me a hate of uniforms

I thought I might add that I ended up doing Religion at GCSE and got an A*.

I'm also currently doing a project on careers. They all move with the times and I would be interested to hear from anyone who attempts the "project" line of investigation with their kids.