h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: The Crew of the HMS Victory at Trafalgar - A87778264
Author: Florida Sailor - U235886

In the Peer Review thread of my second Nelson entry A87775311 bobstafford raised a few interesting questions about the crew of HMS Victory. I felt this would require a good deal more space than I wanted to add to the entry, and was really a separate subject, we decided to add an additional entry.

Here is a list of the men who fought at Trafalgar, and a bit about what they did aboard the ship.

FS

Hi Florida Sailor

I really enjoyed this. I didn't notice anything about the writing style at all, it flowed pretty smoothly right through.

One typo: in the Ship's Officers section, 'unlike' at the start of the third sentence should have a capital U.

Thanks for the credit

Excellent entry!
There were a few minor spelling things that always crop up:
Trafager – Trafalgar
pages,it - need a space
such as the the forecastle
they ranged in age from 12 – They ranged
(victualling ) – extra before )
the the earlier system

You may also wish to consider linking to the following entries:

A13645406 - Hampshire, England, UK
A292349 - Portsmouth, Hampshire, UK
A11689239 - The History of the Royal Navy - Part 2
A23965590 - The Method and Procedures of Nelson's Navy

<BB<

A couple of points...

Cockswain? I've only ever seen it spelled as coxswain...

Royal Marines, you could add that they would also be used to form guns crews during battle... Often manning the quarterdeck guns or sternchasers (a habit that continued well into the 20th Century, WWII battleships often had the aftmost main turret manned by the RM contingent.

In addition, the term 'lobsters' as referring to royal marines... I've never heard that term used in that specific context... I _have_ heard it used to describe British Army soldiers during the American War of Independence, but not specifically aimed at the RM... (virtually all British army regimental uniforms were based on a red coat).

I'd also question your definition of 'son of a gun' - your definition sounds not only extremely dangerous and unlikely, but also not common enough to lead to such a phrase entering service...

The more 'general' opinion on the derivation of the phrase is either a child born on board a warship or a illegitimate child of a serving soldier.



Finally, and this is just my opinion...

The impression of the whole article into life in the navy at the time is a little negative and generalised...

For example:
Pressganging - yes, the gangers could pick up any old Tom, Dick or Harry they liked, but they were generally out looking for paid-off ex-sailors, deserters and merchant seamen... As you said yourself, less than 10% of the crew of the Victory were landsmen and some of those would undoubtedly be volunteers (fleeing the police, landlords, irate fathers, etc.)

The phrase about discontent being abundant seems a little bit of a generalisation, certainly, there was discontent, but this varied greatly from ship to ship, depending on the style and whims of the individual captains

The Spithead mutiny was a very 'English' and fairly sedate affair, rather than the general idea that a mutiny involved lots of bloodshed and sailing off to a tropical paradise, the Spithead mutiny was more of a 'Work-to-rule' with representatives talking to the admiralty about working conditions and pay... (For instance, I believe the purser's 14oz to the pound system was done away with during the negotiations.

Thank you for your reply Whisky;


>Cockswain? I've only ever seen it spelled as coxswain...

I used the earlier medieval spelling, for the keeper of the ship's small boat (cock). Corrected.



>Royal Marines, you could add that they would also be used to form guns crews during battle...

Good suggestion, much more plausible than just milling about in the heat of battle, I am sure you are correct

>In addition, the term 'lobsters' as referring to royal marines...

Removed, I agree with your point.

>I'd also question your definition of 'son of a gun' -

It is an explanation I have read several times, but that does not make it historically correct, reworded.

>The impression of the whole article into life in the navy at the time is a little negative and generalised...

That was not my intent. I would love to include some bright points. I really want to present these men as real people, not cartoon characters.

>For example:
Pressganging - yes, the gangers could pick up any old Tom, Dick or Harry they liked, but they were generally out looking for paid-off ex-sailors, deserters and merchant seamen... As you said yourself, less than 10% of the crew of the Victory were landsmen and some of those would undoubtedly be volunteers (fleeing the police, landlords, irate fathers, etc.)


I agree, most of the impressed men were posted in the higher stations, having experience at sea, however for the many who were swept up by the net it was a very real change of life.

>The phrase about discontent being abundant seems a little bit of a generalisation, certainly, there was discontent, but this varied greatly from ship to ship, depending on the style and whims of the individual captains


Perhaps 'Abundant' is a bit strong, how about 'common'? Do you agree that the men were sill being denied shore leave, even in their home port? That was one of the demands at Spithead, but I see no evidence of it having been granted.

I thought I had addressed the preference for certain ships and captains earlier.

>The Spithead mutiny was a very 'English' and fairly sedate affair, rather than the general idea that a mutiny involved lots of bloodshed and sailing off to a tropical paradise, the Spithead mutiny was more of a 'Work-to-rule' with representatives talking to the admiralty about working conditions and pay... (For instance, I believe the purser's 14oz to the pound system was done away with during the negotiations.


Updated both sections.

As I have said in earlier threads, and hinted at in the final section, my primary research has been US Navy a quarter century after Trafalgar. I welcome all comments from the other side of the "pond" especially those with personal knowledge of the Royal Navy.

The last thing I want to do is to spread the common misunderstandings and myths that are so prevalent on articles on this subject.

Thanks Again

FS

PS
Thanks >>BB
I have also addressed yor comments and added links, both Portsmouth and Hampshire was a bit of a challenge, but I think I managed it

F S

Any other comments here?

Hello I believe during this period that the gunner's mates and quarter gunners were different names for the same rank.

Therefore

The gunner was charged with the care of the ship's cannons. William Rivers would see that all were in good repair and fully supplied for battle. He was assisted by the gunner's mates and quarter gunners, who were petty officers, he would train the men in serving the guns and supervise them in battle.

Should read

The gunner was charged with the care of the ship's cannons. William Rivers would see that all were in good repair and fully supplied for battle. >>>He was assisted by the gunner's mates, also known as quarter gunners, The number of these men in any ship is always in proportion to the number of her artillery, one quarter-gunner being allowed to every four cannon, (presumably where the term quarter gunner originated) who were petty officers, he would train the men in serving the guns and supervise them in action.<<<

Oops I forgot

>>>gunner's mates, also known as quarter gunners These gentlemen were also known as gun layers<<<

Also some suggested amendments

The Boatswain

The boatswain boat swain (Pronounced bo's'n or bos'n or bo-sun) Middle English, servant, from the Old Norse sveinn. Literal meaning, Boat servant. was in charge of the maintenance of the spars and rigging reporting maintenance requirements to the officer of the watch. he was also in charge of the ship's boats and deck crew issuing orders with the bos'n's call or bos'n's pipe this was used to give commands to the crew if voice commands could not be herd because of sea or weather conditions. It had a high pitch,to allow be heard in all conditions including battle. William Wilmet held this posit he best known use of the bos'n's call, is the piping aboard of high ranking officers or VIP's. The boatswain was the most qualified seaman aboard. He would remain with the ship when in port in sole charge of its maintenance, even when she was no longer in commission.





The Coxswain

The coxswain cock swain (Pronounced cox's'n or cox'n or cox-sun) Middle English, servant, the man who is the helmsman and skipper who steers a ship’s boat, (racing boat, or other boat). from obsolete English word cock 'small boat' (from Old French coque, and the Middle English, servant, from the Old Norse sveinn.


Hope it helps

Oops again

The Coxswain

The coxswain cock swain (Pronounced cox's'n or cox'n or cox-sun) the man who is the helmsman and skipper who steers a ship’s boat, (racing boat, or other boat). from obsolete English word cock 'small boat' (from Old French coque, and the Middle English, servant, from the Old Norse sveinn.


sorry

sorry no comments to make, other than I have been lurking on this before it got here and I find the process, well, strangely fascinating

also, the entry in terms of what it set out to do, in the documenting of the people, what they did, in the context that they did, by you two

Fsailor and Bob

it is good

>Hello I believe during this period that the gunner's mates and quarter gunners were different names for the same rank.<

Why would you believe that? Are you forgetting that this is based on the actual muster list and both groups are clearly listed as different people?

The gunner's mates assisted with the maintenance of the guns, while the Quarter Gunners supervised the drill.

>one quarter-gunner being allowed to every four cannon, (presumably where the term quarter gunner originated)<

If this were true then the Victory, with 104 guns, would require 26 quarter gunners while in reality there were only 13 or 17 if we include gunner's mates. The term 'quarter' referred more often to the area where a man lived or served rather than a literal 1/4th in this time period. The 'Quarters' of a Southern Plantation is a prime example, there were seldom only four.

The actual number would seem to support the idea that each quarter-gunner supervised each 4 PAIR of guns, but that might just be coincidence. Do you have any supporting documentation?




>>>>gunner's mates, also known as quarter gunners These gentlemen were also known as gun layers<<<

Do you have any supporting evidence of this? From all my reading the guns were laid by the gun captain (1st or 2nd depending on which side was being served) except under most extraordinary circumstances, in some cases each gun is said to be aimed by the captain himself or one of the officers, this is not only unusual, but unlikely under most circumstances.

See A1905031 for an example of the captain himself laying the gun.

Added footnotes to both the boatswain and coxswain, and added a bit to the boatswain's job description. I have not seen any documentation that the boatswain had anything to do with the ship's boats.


The Coxswain
Added a footnote. Not sure I understood your correction to your own earlier post . The Victory carried no racing sculls, so any reference to collegiate rowing events is clearly out of place here. I also question the use of the word 'skipper' in 1805 English.

By the way Peanut glad to see you please feel free to speak up if you think it appropriate!
I am not trying to be difficult, but I want to keep the entry as close to fact as possible, and not include opinion or popular misunderstandings as part of the text.

The Victory carried no racing sculls, so any reference to collegiate rowing events is clearly out of place here.

Its just that it is a modern term a reader could relate to

>>The Victory carried no racing sculls, so any reference to collegiate rowing events is clearly out of place here.

Its just that it is a modern term a reader could relate to<<

Sorry Bob, that is just a pet peeve of mine. The coxswain of a racing boat is basically the team coach, who keeps shouting "stroke" while running in a straight line. The conduct of a naval boat under oars is totally different. While commanding large pulling boats I have had too many come aboard as crew who were convinced they were the same thing.

I have included most of your thought, but I still want avoid too much detail to avoid the


FS

No problems, it is fair comment it was a little to much information

Ah, too much nautical terminology for me to keep track of - I'll take everybody's word for this entry's being shipshape.

It's certainly thorough - thanks for making the 'Victory' more human.

One Interesting thing the stateroom floor is painted canvas to look like black and white square tiles. It was thought (as they were worn not to publicly declare membership) that Nelson was a Freemason and so were most of the fleet captains and the Victory stateroom was a masonic lodge.

Hi Dmitri;

Thanks for replying! Are we getting too technical? I was hoping for a simple explanation for the casual reader, without insulting them by too much simplification. This can be difficult when writing on a technical subject that you have spent far too many years studying. Any suggestions are most welcome.

That is interesting Bob, and another example of two people separated by a common language! I would have used the term 'Great Cabin' and considered 'state room' to be a small private sleeping cabin. In a brief look at the interweb I find the European definition to be quite different.

Painted canvass floor coverings were quite common in the great cabins of ships as Linoleum was not invented until the 1850's. Your theory about many of the fleet's captains being Freemasons is interesting, but I doubt they would have met often enough in Victory to support a lodge in the cabin.



FS

I don't think it's too technical, FS, but I'm the wrong one to ask.

I long ago developed the habit of letting nautical terminology wash over me. For example, I have no idea what starboard and larboard watches are. Or what a dog watch is. But it has something to do with time-keeping, and that's good enough for me.

Similarly, I gather they 'go aloft' to do something fussy with sails. What they do is basically a mystery, but hey - I've survived watching 'Master and Commander' about four times - most recently with my brother-in-law, who is an expert mechanic but wouldn't know a mizzenmast if he ran into it - without being unduly worried. At least we get the weevil joke.

I don't know about the Masonic business, but Masons being pretty compulsive characters - have you seen the Philadelphia Temple? - I wouldn't put it past them to have a Masonic floor covering, just for the fun of it.