h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Why Villains in Movies Have British Accents - A831836
Author: Θεανθροπη (AKA il viaggiatore) - U153746

I've seen this question pop up in many fora around h2g2. I thought I'd give a shot at answering it.

You should leave out Braveheart and The Patriot (both times ) since they are historical dramas, where the bad guys are the British, and not the British accent.

Done.

Since I see almost only dubbed versions of movies, I can't really say much about it; however, often I know who's British and who's not, so I noticed this effect, too.

Die Hard was a particularly bad case because the score theme of the bad guys was Beethoven's Ode to Joy, which suggests that some sort of general 'anti-europaism' may play a role, too.

For me it was also pretty interesting that the Spice Girls pronounced some words in an American fashion, e.g. 'dance' or 'fast', probably to avoid irritating the Americans.

There's also another -- albeit only related -- example: If I remember correctly, half of Great Britain died laughing at Kevin Costner as Robin Hood, spoofed in "Men in Tights":
Prince John: And why would the people listen to you?
Robin Hood: Because, unlike some other Robin Hoods, I can speak with an English accent.

I liked the entry very much. It's written in a very fluent pleasing language and contains some interesting because little known bits.

The 'non-british' Robin Hood goes back way before Kevin Costner. Hollywood has been making Robin Hood movies with american Robin Hoods since they first got audio.

I think you should pick a different example in the first paragraph, since both Jeremy Irons in the third Die Hard film and Alan Rickman in the first were British actors palying German villains - I don't know how German they sounded to actual Germans, but their accents certainly weren't standard British.

Azara

"It's written in a very fluent pleasing language"
Thanks for the comments. I'll see if I can work in the Robin Hood thing.

Azara,
Perhaps I was thinking more of the evil genius stereotype when I wrote that. Who would be a better example then?

Much as I love it, "gratutitous" is not a proper word. "Gratuitous" is. Although personally, given the choice, I'd spell it, and say it, "gratutitious". That sounds GOOD!

Query : what is the "British accent". British accents vary as widely, if not more so, than American. I have personally had a conversation with a guy who only spoke English, and only caught one word in four through his geordie accent. His NAME was Geordie, in fact, and he could poke his finger through an apple, which was quite impressive in the canteen. By British, you do mean, I think, what most people would call "posh", or at the very least RP (which you did mention without explaining...). Can anyone name an American film with a Scouse/Cornish/Welsh/Geordie/Mancunian villain?

Typos again: natually x2 should be "naturally" with the "r".

Cliffhanger is a particularly interesting one in that the guy with the English accent is an American actor, faking it.

Mission Impossible 2 has that fairly rare creature, the SCOTTISH baddie. Not quite the same thing.

I think the accent Patrick Stewart affects in Conspiracy Theory is only "British" to the most uncultured of American ears. To anyone else it must surely be called "weird mid-Atlantic".

You've missed out any number of Bond movies, with outlandishly named villains (Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Scaramanga et al) who surely must have ethnic roots with names like that, sounding like lifelong Kensington residents.

Surely the archetype of the British baddie syndrome is the original Star Wars trilogy. ONLY Obi-wan (and Wedge, if you want to get OBSCURE) of the good guys has a Brit accent, and ONLY Darth Vader of the baddies is even vaguely Yank. Other than the stormtroopers ("these aren't the droids we're looking for"), without exception the Empire commanders are Brits (including Dr. Frankestein, Bullman, Mr. Bronson from Grange Hill and many more). Even Boba Fett is English!

H.

I'd just like to add that in "Cliffhanger" the actor doing the faking is John Lithgow, and he does it extremely well.

As for a better example of the "evil genius"... well...

X Men? Except the good genius is English too, isn't he?

Labyrinth? Except is Jareth really evil, or just misunderstood?

Dark City? Except is Mr. Hand really evil, or... well OK, he's really evil, but is he a genius? Which leads me onto...

The Rocky Horror Picture Show! All American Hero and Heroine! Evil transvestite alien (English) villain!

Also, now I come to think of it... Jurassic Park. Heroes? American paleontologist/paleobotanist/mathematician. Villain? Ultimately, weirdo English/Scottish hybrid-accent-man, Richard Attenborough. And some velociraptors, who clearly squawked in exactly the same accent as Jade off Big Brother - separated at birth?

H.

I think that robyn hood stands as an example when you notice that they manage brit accents for most except the hero/s

Fixed the Typos

I agree that accents in Great Britain vary widely. I used the term British in the entry because I wanted to include them all. I'm not a linguistic expert and can't really tell which flavor of British is most commonly used by movie villains. By generalizing I can also encompass anomalies like Mission impossible 2. Also, what is RP but a British accent. As an invented, affected accent it's not really associated with any region, perhaps with London as it's the voice of the BBC, but the London accent doesn't really sound like RP, does it?
I'll consider more input on this point.

re: Patrick Stewart. Uncultured American ears are the primary target for the films described in the entry.

Thanks for the comments.

The reference to Braveheart and in particular footnote 3 is a bit mileading. You say that the British actually are the bad guys, but the good guys are British too! Nice entry all-the-same.

SK

Hiya Theta Epsilon,

Interesting entry. I've got lots to say about it, much of it in the form of what I hope are constructive suggestions. I know you are a PR trouper, so I'm speaking freely. pinch of salt recommended, naturally.

so:

I agree that it is a shame to use DH3 as your opening reference: there is nothing quintessentially Brit about Mr Irons in that film - indeed, there is nothing 'quintessential' in there at all, imo. Maybe it is a quintessential 'cynically silly third in a lucrative series' film. If you want a film where he is wicked in PR, how about Dead Ringers, or the one where he plays the guy accused of murdering his wife...

Alternatively, how about Ray Milland - specifically in 'Dial M for Murder', but he was a standard 'so very British' cad and villain before and afterwards. If you feel no-one has heard of Ray Milland these days, well... I despair. It seems like classic films just cease to exist beyond BBC2 these days and don't have a chance in so-called 'polls'.

Another possibility is Peter Cushing in relation to Star Wars (though of course he was long associated with the good guy in Dracula films), or Christopher Lee in many villain roles (getting staked by PC!) culminating in the recent LotR. (since it seems recent films are preferred as references)

Howabout Cruella DeVille in '101 Dalmatians'. Of course, it's set in London, but the principle is there.

Hannibal Lekter is indeed played with a Brit accent in 'Manhunter' the Michael Mann film that pre-dates SotL by some 5 or 6 years. BUT in the Demme movie his accent has a distinctly Southeastern US twang to it at all times. Frankly not RP.

Similarly, as has been said, Rickman's accent in Die Hard is NOT RP. In Robin Hood - in which he was acclaimed as the best screen villain for years - it is very much the Brit villain syndrome at full throttle.

But this brings me back to old films and their stars - Basil Rathbone! Surely one of the greatest suave Brit-talking screen villains of all time! ).

(taken from IMDB)
Menacing as as Mr. Murdstone in the 1935 David Copperfield.

Thoroughly wicked Garbo's cruel husband Karenin in Anna Karenina.

Son of Frankenstein (in the title role; need i say more! ).

Tower of London (at his cunning, malevolent best as Richard III),

The Mark of Zorro (also 1940, particularly memorable as the cold-blooded, ruthless villain), "

Who played the wicked Prince John in that film? British voiced villain extraordinaire Claude Rains.

(quoting from IMDB) "He earned four Academy Award nominations for Best Supporting Actor: as the corrupt Senator in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939), the delightfully dapper, amoral police captain in Casablanca (1942), the faithful stockbroker husband of Bette Davis in Mr. Skeffington (1944, actually a costarring part), and Ingrid Bergman's self-centered husband and Nazi spy in Notorious (1946, directed by Alfred Hitchcock)."

There must be more, but those are some key ones, I think.



On the subject of the accent itself; remember this? - A657560. A rather over-pseudo-academic description of RP (by yours truly) intended for your Eng Lang project. non-edited, but possibly adaptable to your needs.



On the more general 'Why Brit accents?' question, you say:

"This association possibly stems from frontier times, when among the rough and tumble talk of the wild west the less altered speak of genteel folks from the east stuck out conspicuously. It may have to do with the general impression of Great Britain as the 'Old World' a place of tradition and schooling and nobility."

I would have these points the other way round; chronologically, as it were. I saw an interesting comparison with Zeus and Chronos in one article! But generally, the concept of the British as the 'old masters' and British influence as an unjust yoke to be thrown off is deeply engrained in the US cultural history. I don't think it means that's how most or even many US citizens actually see Brits, but I think it's fair to say that the stereotype is based on well over 100 years of propaganda from the mid-18th century onwards.



phew, I've gone off on one; sorry

I'll have to stop there and see what you make of that little lot. still here, though.

cya
spiff

You might care to comment upon Jonathan Freedland's theory (aired in Bring Home the Revolution) that Americans hate imperialism, deference, the class system and big government, and to them the personification of such was the Brits just before the War of Independence. Hence the idea (in Star Wars) that the villains were an imperial power hellbent on squashing a secessionist movement.

Spiff wrote:

>> Alternatively, how about Ray Milland - specifically in 'Dial M for Murder'<<

Well. to be fair, he was playing a Brit who lives in Maida Vale, London. The only one not doing a British Accent is Robert Cumming, the goodie (which kind of proves the point, but...)

I'd agree with the Peter Cushing thing in Star Wars if it weren't for the presence of Alec Guinness and a slew of other Brits. They are there as a mark of old Imperialism rather than any Brits-as-villains decision.

Just noticed you make much the same point in a much better way here:

>>the concept of the British as the 'old masters' and British influence as an unjust yoke to be thrown off is deeply engrained in the US cultural history. <<



>> Hannibal Lekter<<

A spelling they corrected for the otehr films, thankfully. Brian Cox (the original Hannibal) regularly plays the villain. He's got that kind of face that looks cultured but thuggish in one. Superb actor - one of *Scotland*'s best

And one other one - George Sanders plays a rather caddish villain in Hitchcock's Rebecca and played Shere Khan the Tiger in Walt Disney's The Jungle Book. Superb voice.



Hoovooloo wrote:

>>Cliffhanger is a particularly interesting one in that the guy with the English accent is an American actor, faking it. <<

His henchman's English though - Craig Fairbrass, a London geezer, ex of Prime Suspect and EastEnders.

> For me it was also pretty interesting that the Spice Girls pronounced some words in an American fashion, e.g. 'dance' or 'fast', probably to avoid irritating the Americans. <<

Nope, you're probably talking about Mels B and C - the Northern English accent uses shorter vowel sounds. Mel C, coming from Liverpool, has an accent that would have been very familiar to people leaving England for the New World - Liverpool was the port of departure for many heading across the Atlantic.

As many others have said, I think this is one case where the entry should be less inclusive - we're really talking *English* accents here, and a specific accent at that.

I think George Sanders is a terrific example. In that film and many other, perhaps less well remembered films over a career that must have spanned at least four decades. I shall be typing his name into that box on imdb some time soon.

As to 'Dial M'; fair enough about the film itself being set in England. I spose i was more thinking of trying to show a trend over the decades of suave English villains. I can see that if we are sticking to looking at the more modern 'fad' for cads, that may not be worth pursuing.

What about Basil Rathbone, though. He really was a classic screen villain. I guess the same thing applies...

cya
spiff

If we are to talk about English accents, what about Claude Rains? He had an archetypal English accent, yet I can't remember a single film where he was cast as villain.

And Anthony Hopkins and Ray Milland are (were) Welsh, BTW.

Pleidiol Wyf I'm Gwlad,
FM

Nice entry!
What's "RP"?

-Lucinda

Wow! What a slew of useful commentary!

Thanks Spiff for your superior knowledge of film. (and for reminding me that we need to give the English Language project a kick in the rear.)

I'm vacillating on the Star Wars issue. True, Peter Cushing is a really good example of what I'm talking about. But James Earl Jones and the stormtroopers all had American accents. And Sir Alec Guinness was a good guy. And, in a funny coincidence, he played Prince Feisal, who entered into an uneasy alliance with the British Empire in Lawrence of Arabia, which i mention at the beginning of the entry. Small world.

Thanks to all of you who commented. I'll be incorporating your input presently.