h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Actually, Math, suicide outstrips road accidents.

And what would be a good way of alienating young people into a state of suicidal anomie? Howsabouts sending them unmistakable signals that they're not welcome in public spaces, whether or not they're up to no good.

Hmmm... so Mosquito devices lower self-esteem and lead to increased suicide rates? Now there is a PhD Thesis in the making . I think that you are stretching a bit there.

Here is where my twenty years as an analyst kicks in. In my experience any extreme condition is generally due to a matrix of causes.

Suicide is just such an extreme condition. It is highly unusual that a single event or cause would have sufficient weight to bring someone to take their own life. I would expect that a number of causes would have built up to override a human's natural sense of self-preservation.

Suicide is not like an act of self-sacrifice where a person suddenly finds themself in a position where risking their life may save the lives of others. It is a build up of factors such as isolation, abuse, lack of support networks, depression etc.

Not being able to hang around the front of a shop is a highly unlikely trigger what ever way you look at it. Especially as the group of youths so targeted simply move out of range of the device and continue their socialising.

You know nothing about the subject, obviously.

With hindsight...it's been bugging me that I left such a terse response there. Now that I've had time to think, I'd like to be more thoroughly dismissive.

What got my goat first was the silly flaunting of qualifications. There's another notorious Researcher who used to do that, and I always took the piss out of him, too. I'm sure there are many on this site who could trump you. Beware of making yourself look like a pompous eejit.

Then there was the blatant misrepresentation of my argument. No - of course Mosquitos don't automatically lead to suicide. What I was suggesting is that they are symptomatic of societal attitudes which are telling our young that they have no place in our society. In their position, small wonder that they commit crimes. Read some f***ing criminology and then get back to me, eh?

But more fundamentally -all this is the usual Math distraction tactic. You failed to give a valid argument against the HRA, so you changed the subject.

Hi Eddie,

First, you may disagree with me but it is unnecessary to attempt to browbeat me with insults.

Methinks it was your good self who took us down this tangent, to whit:

"And what would be a good way of alienating young people into a state of suicidal anomie? Howsabouts sending them unmistakable signals that they're not welcome in public spaces, whether or not they're up to no good."

This, to my obviously dumb perceptions, would indicate that you were inferring a direct link between the Mosquito device and suicidal anomie.

As for qualifications it is obvious that my reference to my years as a professional analyst are trumped by your elevation to the child protection/family thingy you announced so proudly a few months ago.

And as for tangent:
"Read some f***ing criminology and then get back to me, eh?"
Excuse me? I thought we were discussing suicidal anomie, not crime?

OK, the HRA. There is a case being made at the moment that the deployment of mosquito devices is an assault on these youths' Human Rights. I don't seeing these bleeding heart liberals wringing their hands for the Human Rights of the poor pensioner who has to brave the gang of drunken youths gathered outside the Post Office.

The HRA has noble aims, but it is being used daily to protect offenders not victims, to persecute the innocent and alienate the ordinary folk of this nation.

We already have a raft of legislation to protect us from bigots and the abuse of power. The HRA is a lawyers' charter and benefits them alone.

Blessings,
Matholwch .

>>
Methinks it was your good self who took us down this tangent, to whit:

No. You did your usual diversionary thing. When I suggested that I might need some examples of the idiocies of the HRA, you came back with the red herring of Mosquito devices. I don't know why I got embroiled. I don't want to be used as a platform for you to spout oh-so-clever twaddle.

The problem with wresting with a pig in mud is that you have to take the shite with it.

OK - that was my initial reaction. I still stand by it...but in more detail:


As for qualifications it is obvious that my reference to my years as a professional analyst are trumped by your elevation to the child protection/family thingy you announced so proudly a few months ago. tongueout

Elevating myself, am I? By putting in the hours for no reward? At least I'm f***ing doing something. What? So I should be ashamed of that, rather than proud?

>>And as for tangent:
"Read some f***ing criminology and then get back to me, eh?"
Excuse me? I thought we were discussing suicidal anomie, not crime?

Yeah. Go read a bit and come back with some sensible ideas about the causes of youth crime and how to reduce it. Here's a clue: When people have no stake in society, some of them commit crimes. Others turn it in on themselves.

Hi Eddie,

If I took us down a tangent it was by invitation methinks.

"When I suggested that I might need some examples of the idiocies of the HRA, you came back with the red herring of Mosquito devices."

Red herring? When the HRA is being used as a shield for intimidation by youths? I don't think so. When are you going to step in and look at the other side of this issue? Perhaps when you are 75 and fear going to the shops because of the angry, disenechanted youths on the stairwell or outside the door?

I care about both sides which is why I pointed to the sterling work being done in Scotland in teaching children philosophy and critical thinking, and why I asked what can we do in the meantime for the youth we have already. Whatever its cause unlawful beahviour must be dealt with. "I had a crap childhood and few prospects" is no excuse, nor is "I have my rights!".

"I don't know why I got embroiled. I don't want to be used as a platform for you to spout oh-so-clever twaddle."

Such sarcasm in one so young...

"The problem with wresting with a pig in mud is that you have to take the shite with it."

And we are back to hurling insults in the hope it might deter me, or lower my esteem in the eyes of your compadres. No point mate, I am a theist and thus already beyond redmption, and no doubt first against the wall when the rationalist revolution comes.

"Elevating myself, am I? By putting in the hours for no reward? At least I'm f***ing doing something. What? So I should be ashamed of that, rather than proud?"

I didn't say you should not be proud and I remember congratulating you when you announced it, but heaven forfend that I should also claim some expertise. You are not the only one who puts in hours for no thought of reward and I truly wish there were more like thee and me.

"Go read a bit and come back with some sensible ideas about the causes of youth crime and how to reduce it. Here's a clue: When people have no stake in society, some of them commit crimes. Others turn it in on themselves."

Well duh! It's a shame that I wasted my degree on social psychology with a focus on deviancy and youth innit like?

I note you once more avoid my point:
"The HRA has noble aims, but it is being used daily to protect offenders not victims, to persecute the innocent and alienate the ordinary folk of this nation."

Let us have a more pertinent example then from my own life.

There is a church in my town that has become unsafe and will have to come down. The local council asked for ideas on what to use the land for. I suggested making a permanent memorial garden for the men and women who have sacrificed themselves for our region. Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, Firemen, Policemen, Ambulancemen and others. Use it for the festival of remembrance and involve the whole community.

A group of moslems from the town suggested building a Mid-Wales Mosque. When I pointed out that my idea served the entire community and that there were only 12 moslems in the town who were already well-served by a meeting house (which I have attended in an interfaith celebration) I was accused first of being a racist and then of refusing them their Human Rights. They engaged a solicitor to pursue the HRA claim and the council has now abandoned all plans for the site in case it is sued.

Fear of the HRA ranks only with fear of the HSE in the minds of cash strapped local authorities. The cost of defending such claims is astronomical, so many simply cave under the threat of them.

For every noble landmark case based on the HRA that fights its way through our legal system there are a dozen idiocies enacted under the aegis of the act or the threat of it.

Blessings,
Matholwch - a shite coverd pig apparently

Matholwch, you bore me.

These Mosquitos - If opposition to them is the best example you can give of The HRA Gorn Mad - then you're on a sticky wicket. You may not agree - but there are some quite reasonable arguments against. If you'd like to suggest some *genuine* examples of how it's a lawyers' charter - then we can take it from there.

But when you intimate that anyone who wants sensible solutions to youth crime is turning a blind eye to the intimidation of pensioners (middle-aged Druids) - that's when I lose patience. Why on earth do you think that people are engaged in the hard work of engaging with young people if not to stop them committing crime? Forget about convenient-sounding but worse than ineffective easy cures. Life's more complicated than that, mate.

And you can hardly blame me for being utterly pissed off with arguments that amount to 'I know more about it than you do 'cause I live on a tough estate' or 'I'm a QA manager in an electronics factory, me'.

I hope you'll agree that I don't normally take such a strident tone. But I get annoyed when I'm patronised by people who simply haven't thought things through.

I meant (or middle-aged Druids)

Glad to see the debate's as heated as ever around here. Hi Math! Hi Eddie! It's been a while.

Back after a four year hiatus; that's most of my time at university for you.

So about the mosquitos. We don't have them here in the US, and frankly they're rather astonishing to me. "Young people" (full disclosure: I am one) as a group are no particular kind of person, and it seems to me awfully impertinent to turn them all away for the sake of dealing with the problematic ones. Aside from the alienation leading to crime, it just ain't fair. There are other ways of dealing.

That said, it doesn't seem like an issue that should be being litigated by an organization like the HRA. I'm not particularly familiar with them, but if that's the sort of thing they do I have to sympathize with Math's position; these don't seem like pressing human rights issues. The right not to have your ears hurt for a little while in a public place is not a major one for me, or I'd be suing the winter.

Name:logicus.tracticus

Chair title: Parasite of no Conséquence

Any beliefs you'd like to list so we can make fun- er... discuss them:

Hi Logicus and welcome to the FFFF. As you can see it's a hive of activity in here so you will need to check in at least once a season to keep up with the conversation.

F

Is H2G2 finally dead? I was not part of many communities but the FFFF was one of them. I have had my path from Pagan to Agnostic to Atheist since last I posted. And this poor community lamentably has been idle for nearly a year.

Where are people hanging these days? It seems there is a good freethinking community on YouTube...

-- ZenMondo

Then get it going then! There's other God Theads...but theb FFFF need restarted.

It's just sleepin'
















Bewtiful ploomage, eh?

Guess that's our posting to this thread done with for another year....

Yeah...but someone has to say something stimulating. You haven't stimulated us yet, T.

Go on - pique our interest.

Not sure I currently have the energy to pique anyone's interest.



Perhaps in a few weeks, when the RL dust settles...

Well now my interest *is* peeked. I' shuddering in antici...




























...pation.