h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I believe that Human life is more important than animal live. Therefore I approve of testing LIFE SAVING DRUGS on animals, providing the upmost is done to look after their welfare.

However, i am entirely against any sort of cosmetic treatment on animals!

That's ok, cosmetic testing has been banned in this country and no longer occurs.

wide

And why exactly do you believe that? Probably because you'd go mad if you didn't. The human mind likes being comforted by such "axioms". I believe every kind of life is worth the same, although I make exceptions for annoying insects, bacteria and other pesky beings, in order not to go mad.

why are human lives so much more important? because we find it necessary to control others and kill anything that might oppose this? because we think we are better than animals? how can we be better than something our life depends on?

Did someone tell someone that we humans aren't animals? If so, let me put 'em right! Human beings are, in fact, animals!

Sal (just another animal)

Well said sal it does seem we are all forgetting that minor detail. or selectively eliminating it from our subconcious mind.

I don't eat any animal product and I don't condone animal testing; I am a vegan and proud of it. Humans are animals just like anything else and if anything humans should be extremely nice to other animals (including not eating them) even if the animals aren't nice back; humans have morals, other animals don't. If people have morals I don't see how they can justify eating another living thing.

Well met from a fellow vegan, Touconos!

I'm a vegan (since 1981) for the same reasons as you but argue that I have the ability and opportunity to make the decision as far as possible, not to cause the death of any living animal.

However, I confess that if I was stranded on a desert island and the only chance of survival was by eating another living being (what ever the species), I would do so.

*Eyes her fellow researchers and licks her lips menacingly whilst sharpening her knife*

My husband chooses to eat meat because he would go out and kill it himself and my son does because he is autistic and is unable to understand the principles or differences between my hubby's diet and my own. However, my 13-year-old daughter is a vegan from birth and has chosen to remain so.

We are fortunate that we live in a culture where we have the ability and variety of food to choose to be vegan. Others in third world countries are not so fortunate.

Mind you, if the Western World in feeding their livestock to produce meat and dairy products didn't squander tonnes of grain, then perhaps there would be a lot more food to go around the rest of the world.

That's right. I read somewhere that if a certain number of people went vegan, then we'd only be using 20% of our current farming land (in england) and the other 80% could be used to tackle world famine

Also, for every 1% of the UK population that stops eating meat (or it could be all animal products; I can't remember) 9,000,000 less animals a year are killed.

I am not quite a vegetarian. I eat eggs and milk, because no cow or chicken needs to be killed for that. I don't consider an infertile egg to be a chicken. But I do eat fish. Why? Because I know what angling is, I can catch a fish and kill it myself without feeling many pangs of conscience. Why? I do believe fish have feelings. I can tell by the way a fish struggles that it feels pain and has a will to live. It's just that catching a fish is nothing worse than what happens to most fish anyway during the course of their lives. Consider how many fish eggs are produced and how few baby fish make it to adulthood. Basically the life of a fish is a harsh life and what we do to them is not a factor that significantly detracts from the values of their lives, considering all factors. Unless we overfish. And we happen to overfish. And also we sometimes damage other fish or even dolphins in our attempts to catch the fish we want. So I eat only a small amount of fish, and I choose dolphin-friendly tuna. But I need the protein, the iron and some other nutrients. I live in the third world and there aren't quality vegetable sources of some nutrients found in animal products available. If I had non-meat alternatives, I would use them.

I am concerned about the wellfare of animals, and even plants. I think if we consume only what is absolutely necessary, it's not wrong; I cannot say eating meat is absolutely wrong, because then my friends the lions and the hyenas and the leopards and the jackals are all very evil creatures, which they are not. I believe the answer is to always be respectful, and even if you kill something for some reason, to do it as kindly as possible, as close to the ways of nature as possible. I've seen that many herbivorous animals do not suffer very much when caught by carnivores - they don't have egos like humans, they know that the meat eaters also need to live. And speaking for myself, I would not mind it very much if a lion caught and ate me. I would mind it much, much more if somebody shot me with a gun for the sake of my money or posessions. We humans must not stray from the balance of nature in our patterns and methods of consumption.

You cant regard human life as an equal with animal life! Are we going to call the police and ambulance evrytime an animal is hit by a car?

Saying that as an 'animals' you dont eat other animals is rubbish, half the species on the planet eat meat - are they cruel?

Human life, as described in the Bible, is more important than animals life - we have the abilty to think and communicate in complex ways! One person said 'we have morals' that why we should eat meat - thats why human life is more important the animals life!

However, humans do have a responsibility to look after the best interests of the animals and as superior species to care for their needs and basic standards.

Foxes and mink actually ENJOY killing - how nasty of them! They will kill hundreds of animals with no intention of ever eating them! My terrior chases rabbits (with no chance of catching them) and no need to eat them, just for fun! Cats play with mice in their mouths with no intention of eating them.

Now tell me why - if nature allows this - eating meat is evil!

How far to we go with this - down to bactera? It seems that cos we see animals who are big and cuddly its cruel to eat them! Every time we bake bread thousands of yeast organisms are killed!

Just to throw a meat eaters argument into teh fray. Why do I eat meat, well because it is very tastey and mildly less GM'd than soya. And ultimately, because we are top of teh food chain. Would you criticise a dlophin for farming fish? (It has been regualrly observed that dolphins farm and herd schoals of fish in nature) I respect anyone who chooses not to eat meat for whatever reason (I know someone who is Vegetarian (not vegan) because she doesn't like the taste of meat) but I do dislike people wo call me murderer or try to stop me eating meat. Ultimately, would I kill an animal myself for its meat. Yes, With my bare hands if needed. And I know tehy feel pain but so woudl I if a lion was chewing at my leg. Ultimtely, its just nature.

I've scanned up and down this thread looking for the bit where someone said eating meat was evil, Akershaker. As far as I can see, nobody has said that. Perhaps you're misinterpreting what someone has said.

A biblical argument isn't going to cut any ice with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs in the supernatural.

It may be completely natural for humans to hunt for food but we live in unnatural conditions now. There are so many of us on the planet and the with the population continuing to grow, if we just continued to follow our natural instincts like the wild animals we may still be, under our "civilised" exterior, what would happen, do you suppose?

Look what's happening in Britain because of the way we farm to cater for the enormous appetite of meat eaters. They're currently filling an huge hole in Cumbria with probably half a million dead animals. Nobody's going to eat those animals. Apparently those animals don't matter at all. They're just dead meat. Goodness knows how many sick and healthy animals will have been slaughtered by the time this epidemic is over. I wonder what it is about humans that some humans think is so flippin' marvellous, moral and superior. Do you suppose those naughty old foxes or mink would've visited a holocaust of the scale MAFF is now inflicting on sheep, cattle and pigs on any other species?

Of course carnivores enjoy killing. What would stimulate them to hunt and feed themselves otherwise. If they didn't enjoy killing they'd die, they wouldn't breed and they'd be extinct. That's irrelevant. The point is that humans are in a position to choose and they're in a position to drive every species including themselves to extinction if they make the wrong choice.

There's only one reason humans are superior to other species, and that's because they think they are. It's all in the mind. There's no solid foundation to that belief but enough humans believe it to make it seem utterly real to them.

What do you mean about dolphins farming 33337? Do you just mean that dolphins round up the fish when they hunt them or are you implying that they fence them in over the fishes' life time and breed them?

Sal

I couldn't have said it better myself, Sal.

One can't use the ramblings of a book that is a couple of thousand years old as an excuse to eat meat just because it says you can. Are you also prepared for people to sacrifice their children because this book says it is acceptable?

If people choose to eat meat/fish/dairy products, good luck to them (there will be more of the good stuff left for us veggies ) but I wish more people were aware and objected to the farming methods employed and environmental damage created in producing their meal.

It is farming and fishing methods and practices that I object most strongly to and not the fact that people wish to eat meat.

Incidentally in consuming dairy products and eggs (even the free-range variety), one is directly supporting the meat industry. To produce milk, a heifer has to calf every so often and what do you think happens to the calf if it is male? Also, once the heifer's profitable milk-producing days are over, she is sent to slaughter just the same as her male offspring. The same applies to hens that lay eggs. What happens to the male chicks that are hatched? If their not sent to broiler houses or raised in free-range conditions for meat, then they gassed, crushed and fed back to their fellow chickens.

In eating fish, one is directly contributing the destruction of thousand of species (including whales, sharks and dolphins) that are caught in nets and are thrown back, unwanted.

As a rule, farmers are in business to make money and animals are just commodities and by being a vegan, as far as possible I hope not to support these industries and their malpractices.

You know what, however...it should matter to you. I cannot make you believe in God, your creator -- only you can. However He gave us, humans, dominion over the earth. We should be good stewards of such. We should use the resources wisely and be the guardians of this planet.

The animals were not created in God's image. We were. Some may not eat meat for health reasons -- fine. But not eating meat because of so-called animal rights flies against the nature of man, the nature of God, and the nature of creation.

Man was made omnivorous. Too much of either plants or animal is bad for you -- a healthy balance is required.

Any why do you eat plants? Are they not alive? Just because you cannot communicate with them makes them fair game (pun intended)?

The Bible never says that human sacrifice is acceptable. Just to clear the air on this mistatement of yours. The Bible is the perfect, infallible Word of God. It is the same as it ever was and no evidence to contradict it has ever been presented. Evidence to support it comes forward all the time.

But again, a non-Christian does use this foundation upon which to live their lives -- so my statements may appear folly to them. And that is their choice. But only a cannibal feels that all life is equal.

Hello, what've we got here, the attack of the Christian fundamentalists? It's difficult to have a sensible discussion with someone who resorts to the authority of some supernatural being in order to justify their position. That may be an understatement. I'll leave it to others who've got a better grasp of the language of superstition.

I oculd start on how teh bible is definitely not infallable, but it woudl involve contacting my Historian sister and I don't aprticularly want to do that.

We have evolved omnivourous, theories go that we were always hunter/gatherers.

Dolphins farming, well tehy do round up fish. Anything else is left to teh mystery of teh depths. Notably tehy have been observed helping humans so I alsways feel we work with thwir blessing.

For "Intensive" farming. Well a couple of points. i don't buy free range eggs becase what can be called free range at teh moment is crueller than battery (And is not teh nic efarmyard scene on teh packet) I actually don't eat many eggs (No because ofethics because The person who I also cook for doesn't like them).

As for meat, I agree. the probel is taht the BSE crisis closed down many smaller slaughterhouses and called for teh mass transit of animals which I oppose. Thsiis one of the leading factors in teh spread of foot and moyth disease (Plus the refusla of someone in teh chain of command to administer a Vaccine, yes there is one) Animals shoudl only be transported frozen. In a purely selfish opinion, stressed animals taste bad. The increses in adrenalyn flavour teh meat in a bad way, thats why better meat coems from calm cows.

I woudl just like to refer to tehs atrt of thsi ramble once again.

We shoudl keep vaguely on topic and lats not have a go at teh christians, tehre's a million other appropriate places we can do that in thsi community.

Please do not preach a religion at me (I don't think you were, you say you were a non christian or was i seeing things) There is no call for you to try to change our beliefs to whatever you think.

Not sure who that last paragraph is addressed to 33337 but if it was me, I'm not preaching religion or non-religion. I'm just expressing my unwillingness to descend into mumbo jumbo. I'm happy enough to discuss the issues but not if people are going to start introducing the wills of their various gods as some sort of "evidence" in support of this view or that view.

I agreed with your points about farming methods, transporting of animals, vaccination and one or 2 other things.

Ditto.