A Conversation for Talking About the Guide - the h2g2 Community

I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21221

Matholwch - Brythonic Tribal Polytheist

Hi Blicky smiley - biggrin

"If we used execution more often we might be without Nelson Mandela."

We might also be without any number of career murderers and rapists who do the time only to repeat the crime.

And what, pray, is the difference between Nelson Mandela and Sheik Abdul Hamzah? Both were/are accused with promoting murder as a method of political change. As it happens both men were/are guilty.

People forget that the great Nelson was a terrorist leader, and like all terrorists he felt the end justified the means. In his case I'll admit the system against which he fought was wrong. But the means, were they right? Bombs in cafes and baby carriages, assaults on isolated farms slaughtering men, women and children?

If you want to choose a leader who was jailed and could have been executed for sedition and treason, yet went on to become the father of his nation without shedding, or advocating the shedding of a single drop of blood, then pick Mohandas Ghandi please smiley - ok.

I used to be completely against capital punishment. Then I became a parent, a father of girls.

It changes you.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21222

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Matholwch, I am still 110% against capital punishment, and I can't see that ever changing.. for one thing, in the USA, there have been so many cases of people on Death Row who were exonerated. Then there are the various moral issues.
However I agree with you about Nelson Mandela. The system he was fighting was evil, as you say, but so were the means he used. I have never understood *why* people think he is a hero! smiley - peacedove


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21223

BouncyBitInTheMiddle

Blame the press.

So if we had capital punishment then innocent people would die, but because we don't innocent people die.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21224

Matholwch - Brythonic Tribal Polytheist

Hi All,

Strange coincidence. On R4 today they related the news about a 19 year old man who has just been imprisoned for life for raping a toddler. This happened shortly after he was released from custody after he had raped a 91 year old woman.

Death seems so small a punishement sometimes.....

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21225

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Yes, Matholwch, but how often does that happen, compared to the reverse? Here in NZ, in the 1970s, a man called Arthur Allan Thomas was convicted of the murder of a neighbour and her husband. Luckily for him, we don't have the death penalty, and secondly, a journalist called Pat Booth was one of many people who thought that the conviction was unsafe. It took years, but eventually the conviction was over-turned (aside from anything else, it was all based on a planted cartridge case.) Arthur Allan Thomas was eventually pardoned and released. Unlike Americans in the same position, he was compensated for the years he had spent as a convicted murderer.
My opposition to the death penalty began in 1964, when I was 11 years old, and saw a cartoon in the Daily Mirror which my father would get. The cartoon showed a bewigged and berobed judge standing in front of a gravestone marked 'Timothy Evans 1953'. John Reginald Christie had just been found guilty of the murders of many women who'd had the misfortune to live as lodgers in his house. One of the women was Geraldine Evans. In 1953 her husband had been executed for her murder and that of her unborn daughter. He had been educationally aub-normal and a poor working class man. Christie was an upper middle class man who testified against Evans, his tenant.
The judge said sorry, but it didn't mean a thing, to Evans, or the orphaned daughter he'd left behind when he was executed.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21226

toxxin - ¡umop apisdn w,I 'aw dlaH

<>

Clearly, the guy is nuts. OK, the possibility of any repetition has to be totally prevented. Presumably imprisonment is as effective as death. I don't agree with punishment for being nuts.

toxx


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21227

BouncyBitInTheMiddle

So lock 'em up for life, then they can only do it once and you won't be shooting innocents.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21228

toxxin - ¡umop apisdn w,I 'aw dlaH

Hi Adelaide. I became aware of the Tim Evans case from the song: "Go Down, You Murderer" written by Ewan McColl, I think. He and his wife: Peggy Seeger, and of course her father: Pete Seeger, did excellent work in publicising social issues.

toxx


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21229

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

I need to check out Ewan McColl.. is he any relation to Kirsty McColl?


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21230

astrolog

To bring this thead back to something near the topic;

'Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes'

http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm#dolphinhindlimbbud

alji


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21231

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Alji, you know that these do not disprove the existence of God? As I (and others) have many times pointed out, Christians who *accept* evolution far outnumber those who go for intelligent design or more traditional creationism... So, that this site is called 'God's greatest mistakes' merely shows that it is misnamed.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21232

astrolog

Adelaide, I believe in a god but my god is life, the universe and everything.
I believe the 'Dance of Shiva' is the action of bacteria.

I believe electricity is the spirit of life!

I don't believe in a good god or an evil god but I do believe in keeping on the right side of my bacteria!

The Old Testament is not the story of a nation or the whole of humanity, it's the myth of one family. The New Testament was put together to unite the early church so that they all 'sang from the same hymn sheet'. In first century before JC there were many 'Messianic' groups in the 'Northern Kingdom', they all became known as Christian. These groups had their own beliefs about the comming 'Messiah' and they needed a leader to unify them. The tribes of the 'Northern Kingdom' believed they were the desendants of Joseph and the were known as 'the sons of Joseph.

alji


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21233

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Hello, Alji. Oddly enough, I agree with you about the Old Testament, by and large, but I differ from you in that I believe that the New Testament *is* for the whole of humanity. But i am not as knowledgeable about its origins as say, Andrew S.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21234

astrolog

Adelaide, have a look at 'DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325 @ http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt


alji


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21235

Inverted Solipsist

"And what, pray, is the difference between Nelson Mandela and Sheik Abdul Hamzah? Both were/are accused with promoting murder as a method of political change. As it happens both men were/are guilty."

"People forget that the great Nelson was a terrorist leader, and like all terrorists he felt the end justified the means. In his case I'll admit the system against which he fought was wrong. But the means, were they right? Bombs in cafes and baby carriages, assaults on isolated farms slaughtering men, women and children?"

I hadn't know Mandela was a terrorist leader--interesting, thanks for the information.


"I used to be completely against capital punishment. Then I became a parent, a father of girls."

I'm still not persuaded that some sort of exile from society might not be a more reasonable alternative to capital punishment. Set off some region of land large enough to support the people who you would otherwise execute. Wall it off completely--using an island might work. Put up border guards. Instead of executing people, offer them the choice of exile there. Given that there are some people who cannot be persuaded to follow the rules of civilized conduct, it seems unfair to execute them for whatever condition is making them unwilling or unable to do so. They cannot be expected to live in society, but kicking them out doesn't require killing them.


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21236

andrews1964

Thanks alji - that's a very good source on Nicea.

The most lively account I have found of the council itself, which complements the bare documentation given on the other website very well, is at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h011.html
smiley - smiley


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21237

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Shall do, Alji, thanks for the link...


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21238

stoneageman

Nelson Mandela was committed to non-violent action until the Sharpeville Massacre (when 69 unarmed people were shot dead and a further 180 wounded by the police) and after that only attempted sabotage against government targets. He was a freedom-fighter.


stoneageman


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21239

astrolog

Radio 4, Monday, Roger Bolton spoke to experts about 'The First Christian Document, the Didache. You can listen to the programme online @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml#f and you can read about the Didache @ http://www.didache-garrow.info/firstchristiandocument/firstdoccube.htm


alji


I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction

Post 21240

Insight



The Bible tells us many times that there is just one true God. Jesus is said to be the son of God, and the Holy Spirit is merely described as a helper, or a comforter. There were many trinity gods around while Christianity was expanding, and it helped the church to assimilate more people if it came up with a trinity doctrine too - but such has not been the case from the beginning, and is still rejected by whoever bases their beliefs on the Bible rather than on the churches' traditions.
John 3:16 - "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son (N.B. not 'that he gave Himself') in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."


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