A Conversation for Monaco - A Grand Day Out

Peer Review: A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 1

aGuyCalledPaff

Entry: Monaco - a grand day out - A4305827
Author: Paff (just Paff) - U1522321

Found a hole in the guide. Maybe it can be plugged with this...


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 2

Skankyrich [?]

Great stuff! As a shoestring traveller myself, I appreciate this intensely. Just a few pointers:

On occasion, your advice does get a little flippant; for example in the 'arrival at Monte Carlo' section. Being smart and cool won't help you escape a fine unless you're really lucky, and your suggestion here that everything will be ok won't apply in most cases. I think you could cut or modify it here and there to provide more practical advice.

The really skint traveller will need to know what road to get on to hitch there smiley - smiley

Any advice on cheap places to get a drink in Monaco? I presume the places with great views will be more expensive than backstreet bars. Or is everywhere expensive/cheap?

Good work!

smiley - cheers


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 3

aGuyCalledPaff

Thanks Skankyrich. Glad you liked it. I've made a couple of tweaks in response to your comments.

Things I've changed:
- Getting flippant. Yes, I've cut the offending sentence. (That's kind of how it worked when I visited though!)
- Hitching. I've added a bit about that. And a bit of extra bus info.

Things I've not changed (and why):
- Practical advice. I was trying not to make it _too_ practical. This is autobiographical, without being written that way. And this is h2g2 after all. If I was going to write a straight information entry, I'd go to Wikipedia or somewhere.
- Bar prices/names. I didn't put these details in because (a) I thought the entry would get dated once bars change names/ownership/etc, and (b) I can't remember names anyway - I just went to the bars I liked the look of!

Thanks for your comments.smiley - cheers


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 4

echomikeromeo

Hi Paffsmiley - smiley

I know you want your entry to be interesting and amusing, but practical advice is a good thing too. The Edited Guide does have an interest in providing information, and if someone really did want to travel to Monaco, they might be interested in some practical advice to help them out while they're there. I am concerned that your tone is a bit too flippant, though it's amusing too.smiley - smiley

Remember, though, that others will be reading your entry looking for real, helpful advice, since that's something we want the Edited Guide to be. h2g2 is meant to be a Guide to Life, the Universe and Everything, as it says at the top of the page, and so the more you actually help out your readers, the better the entry will be!smiley - biggrin

smiley - dragon


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 5

aGuyCalledPaff

So, what we're saying, actually, is 'content over style'.

Sorry, I've misunderstood the EG. I'll get my coat...smiley - sadface


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 6

Skankyrich [?]

No, Paff; content *and* style together smiley - smiley

I didn't say that you needed to make it a blow-by-blow practical 'what to do' piece; there are plenty of those already. Suggesting that turning up without a train ticket and acting cool will be ok, however, is just bad advice.

Also, I didn't say I wanted you to list some bars and prices, just give some indication of any cheap places to get a drink or bite. For example, here in Torquay, I'd suggest the budget traveller didn't drink at a harbourside cafe but instead head up through town into Torre, where the pubs are cheaper and have a more pleasant feel.

It is almost a great entry, but you must after all remember that you have put it up for review!

smiley - cheers


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 7

aGuyCalledPaff

Don't get me wrong Skankyrich, I'm not bitter, and wasn't having a go. smiley - sorry

I agree totally with your remark about being 'a little flippant', which is why the first thing I did was pull that sentence out. What I was kind of saying in this thread (but not in the entry) is that I haven't actually checked out bar prices in different districts, so therefore I can't comment. However, what I _could_ say (in the entry) is that if you're going to have a beer in Monaco, get some sun and look at the sea while you do it!

I admit I was having a knee jerk reaction to Echo's comments (which are the same thing, said differently). Again, I wasn't trying to start a fight - just feeling a bit stupid for putting this up for review.

And yes, I realise if I put this in PR, I should expect some criticism. I was going to pull it out of PR (although I can't work out how) because having had 2 comments in 2 days both saying the same thing, I figured I've misjudged it, so there's no point in leaving this in here.

(And although I'm happy to do some tweaking, if I add much more 'practical advice' I'll be having to make the stuff up).

So, I apologise for my tone of reply. That's not how it sounded in my head, it's just how it came out on the keyboard.smiley - smiley


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 8

Skankyrich [?]

No, don't feel stupid putting this up for review, and I'm not going to tell you how to take it out because it's very good and I don't want you to smiley - tongueout It's a great read and a nice entry! And will fit into the Guide nicely with a little tweaking.

If you don't know different prices in different districts, just say! I don't want you to make things up smiley - smiley How about skirting the issue for the budget traveller by giving a warning that, if you want that beer by the lovely view (an integral part of the day as you suggest it) you're going to have to pay a considerable sum for the privilege? That would cover it nicely. The alternative, presumably, would be to get a cheap picnic lunch from a supermarket and have a beer with it on the harbour. Sorted!

You don't need to apologise by the way, I've been flamed as a Scout for much less smiley - biggrin


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 9

echomikeromeo

I apologise if my comments came across as overly critical or insulting; I am still working to tone down my remarks a bit when I comment on people's entries. If you incorporate a few of Skankyrich's suggestions, this will be a great and very complete entry. I just felt it was a little incomplete as it is.smiley - erm

Peer Review has a reputation as being a bit of a bear pit, and I know that sometimes it is easy to see why. I know from my days as a newbie (which weren't all that long ago) that having Scouts come along and criticise your entry is not a particularly enjoyable experience. But do hang in there, and before long you'll see your entry on the Front Page of h2g2!

smiley - cheers
smiley - dragon


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 10

Sho - employed again!

It's a lovely entry, and makes me want to travel again.

You mentioned early trains/buses, which is good if you really want to make the most of your 24 hours there. Any chance of putting some general info about around when the last bus/train might leave?

This stuff should be easy to check on the net, and (as with the beer prices) since you don't want it to date or be innaccurate, you might be able to provide a link to the bus timetable website?

I think that with a little tiny bit of tweaking (as in putting in just a tad more info) this will be a most excellent entry

smiley - cheers<--- cheap German beer


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 11

McKay The Disorganised

Do you have any idea what a nightmare it is trying to get a mooring in the harbour ?

Do you care ?

Thought not. smiley - biggrin

I don't see why we can't shove this one up for editing - smiley - ok

smiley - cider


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 12

Number Six

Nice entry - I'm planning to pop in to Monaco on my way past at the end of the month, and this is just the sort of thing I was looking for!

There's one spelling I spotted in there - I'm pretty sure the Hotel the hairpin was named after is Loew's (a quick Google seemed to bear this out) and I'll try and have a good look through it in detail and see if there's anything else I can suggest.

You did the right thing in putting this up for Peer Review, Paff, and please don't be discouraged... there's quite a lot of room for manoeuvre in the Writing-Guidelines but it does sometimes just take a little while to get your head around exactly what the Edited Guide is looking for.

By the way, if writing this kind of entry is your thing, you'll be welcome to join us over at A1286886 - there's a few of us that think that these kind of entries about places are the lifeblood of the Guide, and we set the thing up to try and do all we can to encourage them.

smiley - mod


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 13

Number Six

Question - do you know what the parking situation's like? I'm guessing it would be limited and/or prohibitively expensive... maybe better to park elsewhere and bus or train in?

Is it possible to actually drive around the GP circuit? I might feel a bit of a prat doing it in an ageing Citroen Xantia, but it could be worth a pop.

And might it be worth mentioning the football ground as a place to visit, if you're into that kind of thing? I hear that the Stade Louis II is one of the most glamorous places it's possible to watch football.

smiley - mod


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 14

aGuyCalledPaff

Right then folks, I've done some more tweaking.

(First though, Skank and Echo, no need for apologies, but apologies accepted anyway. So that you know where I'm coming from, I'd started with what was effectively a personal account, then changed it so it was no longer first person, then added a load of facts a figures, whist trying desperately not to lose the style of the thing).

Tweaks (based on comments from Skank, Echo, Sho, McKay and Six):
- Specific mention of bar prices (and why price isn't as important as the view).
- Added a bit more bus and train (and helicopter) info (I really don't think I can go further with this without turning into Judith Chalmers).
- Added a bit of boat info (but not prices because we are quite literally talking thousands per day, and that's not the idea of this entry).
- Corrected spelling of Loews.

I'm now a bit worried about the size of the "Getting There" section. In 800x600 in brunel, the reader has to page down twice before getting to "Having a Drink", which I was hoping might hook you're average casual skim-reading types.

At the risk of going on (and using too many sets of brackets):
McKay - the mooring procedure seems quite simple (on paper), but what it's like in real-life is anyone's guess.
Number Six - yes you _can_ drive the GP circuit Number Six. There are a couple of bits where you can't quite go the same way as the F1 cars, and with Monaco traffic, you won't get your Xantia over 30mph anyway.smiley - sadface

Cheers folks.


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 15

echomikeromeo

This is looking better all the time.smiley - ok And no, I don't think the 'Getting There' section is too long. Since I tend to scroll very quickly using my mouse, I arrived at the next bit very quickly while skimming the entry. But that's just me. Anyway, I think it's of an appropriate length.

Another little suggestion: you should make sure all the important words in your headers are capitalised, as per House Style.

smiley - dragon


A4305827 - Monaco - A Grand Day Out

Post 16

aGuyCalledPaff

Just had a read of subeditors-style. I love a good instruction manual... no, really, I do.

As a result, last couple of tweaks (unless anyone has got anything else to add):
1. Subheaders are now headers (again).
2. Headers are capitalised (again).

A couple of _not_ tweaks:
3. Apparently, "whilst" isn't allowed. Well, I've used it once, and I'm leaving it in because I think it reads better in this case. (Call me old fashioned).
4. Slightly concerned that the bus and train external web links aren't allowed.

Interestingly, the technical author in me got points 1 and 2 above correct the first time round. Then I changed my mind, thinking it all looked a bit too... well, technical.

Glad to see that the sub-ed guide is written by a bunch of straight-laced, legalistic, anally-retentive freaks like me.smiley - biggrin


A4305827 - Monaco - A Grand Day Out

Post 17

Skankyrich [?]

Looks good smiley - smiley


A4305827 - Monaco - A Grand Day Out

Post 18

echomikeromeo

The external links are fine, as long as the pages aren't likely to go offline any time soon. But if they're permanent pages (as they look to be) and the links aren't broken, then it's fine to link to external sites.

smiley - dragon


A4305827 - Monaco - A Grand Day Out

Post 19

Citizen Sweeps

Just a suggestion, it might be helpful to explain where Monaco is and why it is a desireable location to visit in the opening paragraph.


A4305827 - Monaco - a grand day out

Post 20

Sho - employed again!

nice job

and I can't see any reason why you can't have links to the SNCF site - even if it is all in French (although I think the BBC don't like links to foreign language sites)


Key: Complain about this post