A Conversation for The Gurus' Home Page

'directions' question.

Post 1

Martin Harper

Peta suggested that if I had 'further questions' regarding my official warning I should ask them on h2g2. I don't have further questions, just questions, and a single question in particular, which she was sadly too busy to give me an answer. I wonder if I could receive some help here. As some of you may know, I recently put a link to the FoLKZ mailing list archive on topica on my home space. I was not alone in this, and I had no inkling at the time that my link was in breach of the house rules. I was subsequently informed otherwise, and removed the link. Fine, I am not here to question that decision. I replaced it with, amongst irrelevancies, the name of the list (FoLKZ), the name of the website (topica), and a link to the home page of the topica website. I linked to the topica website because I wanted people to know what sort of mailing list/website it is. If they knew more about it, they were more likely to email me for the URL. The link to the main topica website was removed by the moderators, who said that it was 'offensive'. From later emails from Peta, I gather that the detailed reason was that the link to the main topica website, together with the name of the FoLKZ list, counted as 'directions' to the FoLKZ list archive. I disagree with this judgement and would like to challenge it. For evidence to support this I would like to present the following thread as Exhibit A: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F71894?thread=127866&skip=40 The critical posting is number 46. Here we see Peet the Pedantic Policeman, a respected researcher who I judge to be of better than average intelligence, failing to retrieve the FoLKZ list website from the same set of information as was on my home space. Based on this evidence, I would suggest that my home space did not constitute directions, and hence was not in breach of the house rules. My aim here is not to cause trouble, nor to make a point. What I desire is a retraction of the Official Warning I received by email for alleged repeated posting of offensive links. I do not wish to have an Official Warning on my record, especially given the h2g2 life expectancy of people with Official Warnings. I hope that is reasonable, well-reasoned, and not too recent Thank you for your help, Martin


'directions' question.

Post 2

I'm not really here

I can't comment on Peta's decision Lucinda, but I had searched the tropica list for Folkz as well - not from your space though, someone who had previously given me the link was not online, so I searched. And I couldn't find it either.
Had you tried searching for it? As if you hadn't, then you wouldn't know it couldn't be found from simply knowing where Tropica was and that Folkz was on it.

What it could seem like to anybody reading that information (although I didn't see it) is that you wanted people to find the site. Any assistance in showing people where something is, is directions I'm afraid. I know, I'm a cabbie, I give and receive directions all day long. Just because we can't find something that we are directed to, doesn't mean they are not directions.
Gurus are here to help, and I'm sorry if this is not the answer that you are looking for, but I'm afraid Final Warnings are not something we have been told to answer or how to answer questions on. I've answered because I like you, and want to think that we are friends.

Mina.


'directions' question.

Post 3

Martin Harper

Yes, I had tried searching for it and, like you, I had failed. At one stage I too had only the address of the main topica website and the name of the list, because I didn't really want to subscribe. I failed to find it, and had to go through the tedium of subscribing, getting the URL, and unsubscribing again. smiley - yawn

I like you too, Mina smiley - smiley

--
Any further assistance is welcome...


'directions' question.

Post 4

Jimi X

I'm not taking sides in this - I'm really not. But I'd like to offer you a view of how it might appear to an outsider...

1. You posted a link to the mailing list.
2. You were told to remove it.
3. You posted the name of the list (FoLKZ), the name of the website (topica), and a link to the home page of the topica website.

Now this is where it gets sticky to me because it might look like this was done as a way to get around what took place in 1 and 2. You say your motives were pure and that #3 was done because you wanted people to know what sort of mailing list/website it is. If they knew more about it, they were more likely to email me for the URL.

Without physically going to the site and trying a couple of different ways of using the information provided in #3 to reach the mailing list, you might think this was just a sneaky way to provide a roundabout way of making a link to the list.

BUT (and I hope you've read this far!) if you really *can't* access the mailing list using the information in #3, I can't see how you've done anything wrong.

If TPTB want to give you a warning for this, I reckon somebody (moderator or someone else) should have actually attempted to follow your 'directions' to see if that's what they were.

On the other hand, I can see where someone looking at the material in your posting could *think* that these 'directions' would lead to the mailing list. And I don't think TPTB should be forced to spend their valuable time chasing around things like this when they could be better employed making the site better.

As the bomb knows in Starship Titanic 'nobody likes a smart ass'. smiley - winkeye

It's a rather ugly situation and I hope somebody with more wisdom than me can weigh in and make some good come out of it!

If the 'directions' aren't really directions to the mailing list, I don't suppose there should have been a warning given. But I can see why it happened.

(Don't you have to admire the way I can sit on the fence like this?)

- X


'directions' question.

Post 5

Martin Harper

Thank you for your help, Jimi smiley - smiley That is very much my perception of what may have happened, though it is hard for me to know for certain.

With regards to wasting the valuable time of the italics, that is precisely why I posted here rather than, say, the Community Soapbox or Peta's space. In particular, I didn't want to draw this to those who are seen as 'anti-h2g2'. Obviously, if I am wrong then this can all be cleared up without involving the italics, and I would know for next time - perfection. smiley - smiley

Thanks again to both of you,
Martin


'directions' question.

Post 6

Menza

I didn't see the original directions so I'm just working on what was said here

This is one of those horrible cases where it is so close to the line its going to cause some problems.

These directions looks as though they should break the house rules, but because they don't actually work, they can't.

If it was possible to get to the appropriate mailing list with these instructions then they would break the house rules. And who's to say that tropica won't change their site to allow you to find the list with that info.

So while I do kind of think that they should be removed, I don't think a warning should have been given.


'directions' question.

Post 7

Martin Harper

Thanks Menza smiley - biggrin You raise one point I would like to respond to, though:

> "who's to say that tropica won't change their site to allow you to find the list with that info"

True, but such sites change infrequently, and I would expect topica to spam me when such a change occured, since I am on one of their lists. Not a serious risk, I feel. Besides, any site can change to suddenly include unacceptable content, but the BBC still links to the outside world. They check all their links every month, and I would certainly be reading the main page of topica more often than that!

--

FYI, The original 'directions' were:
"I'm told that some are annoyed that I and others are talking to LeKZ in private. So, in order to shed some light on proceedings, I'd like to present a link to the FoLKZ list on topica[this word linked to main topica homepage]. Sadly the squacks have censored away the illumination."

This was followed by a horizontal rule, and the rest of my space, containing my email address. The rest of my space is pretty much as it is now, with some change of details.

--

Those who feel the warning was unjustified may wish to bear in mind that after failing to get the link to the topica home page accepted, I included the email address to directly subscribe, which was also hidden. I didn't realise, and I don't think it had ever come up before, that subscription emails counted as directions to the mailing list archives. Obviously I was wrong in this.

I say this because I don't want to be accused of hiding anything, but it was not my intention to get a judgement from you wonderful people on the suspension. As Mina says, that's probably not really your job. I mentioned the suspension to explain why I was asking, because I didn't want to be dismissed as a trouble maker or troll.

If the consensus is that what I posted did not constitute directions then I will consider going to Peta, or perhaps ask one of you to act on my behalf. But first I need to know whether my home space was out of line or not - baby steps and all that... smiley - smiley


'directions' question.

Post 8

Menza

If posting a link to the archive breaks the house rules then posting a link to the subscription address for the mail list must also break them too. Its not the method of linking that the problem here, its whats getting linked to ( I think, correct me if I'm wrong ).

By posting the name of the mail list and a link to the site where it is found might not break rules directly, but it is an attempt to do something that is against the spirit of the rules.

The only alternative I can see is to put something like the following on your homepage.

"I'm told that some are annoyed that I and others are talking to LeKZ in private. So, in order to shed some light on proceedings, we have set up a mailing list on another site. If you are interested, mail me and I'll send you the details"

No links and no mention of the name of the list or its site. Just a full inbox. smiley - winkeye


'directions' question.

Post 9

Martin Harper

As I said, I was wrong to assume that providing the subscription email address was ok. Such a situation had never come up before, and Almighty Rob's link to the same subscription email address had been up for a long time. It is perhaps understandable that I made this mistake, though I certainly accept that it was a mistake.

I'm afraid I just don't see how posting the name of the list and a link to the main topica website is against the spirit of the house rules. Perhaps you could explain?


'directions' question.

Post 10

Menza

As I said before its not the method of linking thats the problem, its the content of what you are linking to.

From the House Rules

"Any links from Guide Entries to websites we consider unsuitable will be removed - if you are considering adding a URL to an entry, please make sure that it adds value and interest to the subject of your entry, and isn't, for example, purely commercial. Unsuitable sites would include those with racist material, pornographic or sexually explicit material, anything which encourages illegal activities, material which infringes copyright, sites which purely plug or promote commercial products or services without containing material which enhances the subject matter, or sites which may offend our users."

I have a feeling the mail list on tropica has been falling foul of that last statement "sites which may offend our users."

LeKZ did post some offensive things and so was banned, and providing a link to a place where researchers could get insulted etc, is not really what the BBC is about. So a link to the mail list archive, or the list itself, is not allowed.

By posting the name of the list and its hosting site you are providing a link "by proxy", and so this is against the intention of the initial ban and the spirit of the rules from which the ban is derived.

Well thats my reading of the situation anyway, feel free to correct me.


'directions' question.

Post 11

Martin Harper

>> I have a feeling the mail list on tropica has been falling foul of that last statement "sites which may offend our users." << I agree: that does seem to be the case. It is perhaps relevant that this last clause was added to the house rules shortly *after* I received my Official Warning. {http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F63189?thread=131799}. In any case I am not here to argue whether the mail list on topica is acceptable to link to or not. You seem to be suggesting that I cannot provide a link to any place containing writing by LeKZ without breaching the spirit of the rules. Is this the case, or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick? I do not agree that by posting the name of the list and its hosting site I am providing a link "by proxy". No such link exists - it is impossible to get to the mailing list from the information provided. Try it yourself!


'directions' question.

Post 12

Menza

The way you introduced the list was by indicating it was a discussion about why LeKZ was banned and that the list was set up explicitly for that purpose. That subject has brought heated debate where ever it appears, and so the link was removed due to the added clause. If it was just a general mail list and LeKZ happened to be there, it probably wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

I have tried the link, and you can't find the list. But you have to agree that with many mail list based sites, all you need to find one perticular list is its name. So TPTB may just be treating all mail list sites the same. (that is just a guess by the way)


'directions' question.

Post 13

Azara

I have to say that I found it quite easy to find the list using the website name. The first search for Folkz or Lekz turned up a blank, but the site then gave a choice to search lists or messages, and searching messages turns up the list straight away if you search on Lekz and on the second page if you search on Folkz.

Whether this is some kind of law of searches, that the least interested (or most irritating) person is the one who will find something, I really couldn't say! smiley - winkeye

Azara
smiley - rose


'directions' question.

Post 14

Martin Harper

*blinks*

Well, that's sorted that out then - I hadn't seen that option at all. That clears up why it was removed very well. I'm glad I asked here rather than bothering Peta about it. smiley - smiley

Thank you all very much smiley - kiss
Martin


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