A Conversation for John Wycliff: Mornings Star of the Reformation

Peer Review: A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 1

dim26trav

Entry: John Wycliff - A3891837
Author: dim26trav - U528315

This subject matter my come from ancient history but it seems relevant to todays issues


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 2

Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide!

Hi there! Told you I'd pop by. smiley - cheers

OK, so my first question, is that when I look around on the net, I see info about what appears to be the same guy, but alternatively spelled Wyclif, Wycliff, and Wycliffe. Are they truly all the same person? And is there a definitve spelling?

I've read in several places that he had a group of followers known as "Lollards" -- I don't really know much about them, but I admit that the name intrigues me greatly. Is there anything you could add about them to the entry?

I've also seen him referred to in several places as 'The Morning Star of the Reformation' -- do you think this is a relatively recent tag, or does the label go back a ways in history?

Isn't he also know as being one of the first theologian to denounce the concept of transubstantiation?

Here are some links I found interesting, poking around:

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/27.html
http://lollardsociety.org/
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1382wycliffe.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15722a.htm

smiley - cheers
Mikey


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 3

Tonsil Revenge (PG)

Yes, the Lollards would be interesting.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 4

dim26trav

Yes they are all the same person.. The English Language had not settled upon standard spelling by the time of his life. In addition, his name come from the area he was born in and the name of the area has slightly changed.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 5

dim26trav

Actually he may have been the first Englishman who disputed the issue of transubstantiation. The sacremental elements had only been officially " actually the Body and Blood" since about the nineth century. Before that time there were several different versions and noe official.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 6

dim26trav

Like all good movements that defy the rules, Lollards were suppressed by the still powerful Catholic church. They walked England barefoot with a particular type of cloak. Originally a very small movement of very well educated Oxfordites, preaching in the countryside. They might have been poor in monetary wealth but they held the holy spirit out to the people. Mostly they were un-authorized preachers at least in the church sense of the word.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 7

echomikeromeo

From my Chaucer research (in which Wycliff seems to keep cropping up) he seems to be very much intertwined with the Lollards, being in fact one of the foremost members of the movement. I've also read that Wycliff translated one of the first - if not *the* first - English bibles.

As far as Chaucer is concerned, Wycliff was the leader of a movement which Chaucer identified with quite a lot. I think the two certainly must have met at some point, as they moved in the same circles in London. Chaucer's radical Lollard-esque views - challenging the Eucharist, questioning the same practices of selling of indulgences that Martin Luther was later to criticise - actually got him into trouble with Archbishop Arundel (the same person who put Wycliff on trial) on more than one occasion - check out Terry Jones' excellent book Who Murdered Chaucer? for more on that.

I'm not sure if any of that was at all relevant, but it's stuff worth mentioning that's vaguely connected to Wycliff. Worth mentioning, perhaps - at least some of it?

smiley - dragon


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 8

McKay The Disorganised

Better not mention the pronunciation eh ? smiley - winkeye

I like this and Wycliffe should be in the guide.

Couple of typo's - The king accept his authority from the Pope and - should be The King accepted -

-they were in actual possession of some of the greatest property in all of England - Should be they were actually in possesion of -

- The later years Wycliff and his circle of academic friends - In later years.

My only criticism would be that there is more could be said about the man's life, within his times.

smiley - cider


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 9

dim26trav

Thanks for the typo mention, they certainly got by me. You are the first critic to contact me, thanks.

14th century England was a time of great and general ignorance (as were just about all places in Europe at the time) (Aside)Ironically China had already become a high society with "modern science" and clean streets in the big cities.

Even then the reputation of Oxford was of independent thinking supported by the king (not the church). Not sure just how to include more about "his times" I guess I could include more about the clergy of the time. Any other suggestions?


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 10

Tonsil Revenge (PG)

Very useful, this beginning of an entry.

So, can you list the reforms that Wycliff suggested and can you tell us just what his sectarian status was?

Have you read any of his writings or actually seen a Wycliff bible?

Why no mention of the use of some of his translations in the Authorized Version of 1611?

Why was his "englich" as used in his translation so important to modern Englich?

Did Henry VIII acknowledge any debt to Wycliff?

Who eventually became Archbishop of Canterbury?

Was Wycliff in touch with other reformers outside the country?

What do we know about Pope Innocent?


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 11

echomikeromeo

As far as archbishops are concerned, I think the one we're talking about is Arundel, who got rather pissed off at Wycliff for being a sort of reformist type, and then held a grudge against him throughout his tenure.

smiley - dragon


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 12

echomikeromeo

Since I'm feeling helpful, here's a few links:

http://www.d.umn.edu/~aroos/wycliffe.html

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1382wycliffe.html

http://www.hfac.uh.edu/gbrown/philosophers/leibniz/BritannicaPages/Wycliffe/Wycliffe.html

There are also a theological college and a bizarre American Christian sect named after him. 'Wycliffe' seems to be the accepted scholarly spelling.

smiley - dragon


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 13

dim26trav

ONE SMALL IRONY IS THT WYCLIFFE HIMSELF PROBABLY DIDN'T DO ANY OF THE ACTUAL TRANSLATION. It was a group of his friends from Oxford that did the translation.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 14

dim26trav

I have actually seen one of Wycliff's Bibles 1st edition(I couldn't read it since the language is so much more primitive than I can read easily)plus it was under glass at the time. It is housed in Dr. Gene Scott's Bible museum in Los Angeles CA.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 15

dim26trav

The Bible that Henry VIII allowed to be used in Anglican churches was written by Coverdale. Whole passages though were transcribed from the Wycliffe Bible without credit.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 16

dim26trav

We do know that other reformers were in touch with Wycliff. Notably John Huss from Bohemia. He actually took a copy of Wycliff's translation after studing with him for awhile. It would be more than a century before Luther would come from Germany and Calvin from France later Geneva.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 17

dim26trav

Pope Innocent was one of the bloodiest popes in history sending more martyrs to their death than any other. Ironic his name isn't it? Being far from innocence.


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 18

Phoenician Trader

Some small things.

I would reorder the first paragraph so that it starts with its last sentence. That would the whole entry a strong introduction to its subject.

Next English couldn't really be said to be an "amalgam" of languages: it had borrowings but it was a complete language in its own right. Chaucer and Wycliff can be read directly by most senior high school student given a good annotated edition.

Wasn't European politics more complicated than the Pope vs the King. I am more familiar with the 1500s than the 1400s, but the main power struggle was between the King and the Emperor (with the Pope used as a bargaining chip). The religious issues were very real and the Pope did have real power but he was just one player in a far more complex game.

smiley - lighthouse


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 19

echomikeromeo

<>

This is true. But, you will observe, Old English (such as that in which Beowulf or many of the epic Anglo-Saxon sagas are written) bears more of a resemblance to German or Dutch than to modern English. We are really only able to understand Middle English (Chaucer's English) because the Norman Invasion brought a huge new French vocabulary into the language. I think it would be accurate to say that, if not modern English, certainly Chaucer's English was a combination of Old English and medieval French.

smiley - dragon


A3891837 - John Wycliff

Post 20

JulesK

Hi dim26trav!

Are you still working on this Entry?

Julessmiley - smiley


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