A Conversation for United States of America (USA)

Christian Church?

Post 21

Manx

Just thought id join in on this cuban communism thing. As to who did what where and when in comparison to the ideals of communism as stated in the manifesto, then we should consider that 'no plan survives more than five minutes contact with the enemy' as sun tzu might have said. communism has never been implemented accurately, neither has capitalism. i too have been to cuba and been massively impressed with its safety, lack of racism(?), the santiera religion, frendliness of the people etc etc. i was also aware of the crippling poverty of the majority of the locals. we sit and discuss cuba as tourists who can afford holidays cubans can generally only dream about. and there lies the crux of the matter for all that i loved cuba its people and the system that supported them, they WANT. 30 years of 'communism' have created a generation of people who do not have cars, televisions, THE INTERNET, and expensive holidays. so before telling everyone that cuba is the way to go i suggest you jack in all those things that 'capitalism' has provided for you and go live a life of back breaking toil in cuba.


Christian Church?

Post 22

Guru

Good point.


Christian Church?

Post 23

FairlyStrange

Communism looks so good on paper. Capitalism is so full of greed and corruption. How do you get from the horrors of capitalism to the beauty of communism? Why, you have to find a leader who wants nothing but what is best for the people, of course! One who has no self ambition. No greed.

Now...what are the principal indications that someone is a great leader? Call me cynical..that's ok. But if you will think about this, I think you will see why true communism has never been implemented.

As far as the US being full of a**es, I beg to differ. I'm one, I know. It's my opinion that most of the world thinks we're "Imperialistic Pigs".....until they need or want our help. Then we're loved until we're no longer needed....then it's back to being considered "meddlesome and unwelomed". It really is getting old. I think we should just butt out and let everybody get by on there own....but that's not practical.

An American weakness. We try to do what we can to help, (yes, sometimes we actually do things for our own benefit...God forbid!) only to have those who asked for it, accuse us of being the agressive one.

Thanks guys.

NM


On Nice Americans

Post 24

Hoop the Mottle

No ,no Joe,Communism doesn't make everyone equal.You mean to tell me that blokes such as Stalin considered themselves equal to the "people".Now,now, do you really think those suits in the KGB running around with big sticks and guns running people in for the fun of it considered themselves equals to the commoners or to Stalin?Come now, we all have a pecking order.The capitalist system just broadens the scope of that order where nerdy little bastards like Bill Gates can rule the world through trial and computer errors.Wake up, man, the very keyboard with which you wrote your hilarious piece was not invented,marketed and profiteered by a Russian equal (who you may think superior to the likes of you and me) no, it was a greedy American with the guts and drive to play the game until every last one of us is standing in line for a new one once Y2k hits.


On Nice Americans

Post 25

Hoop the Mottle

One last thing Joe,we people are many people.We are not a tiny island nation with one stripe running down its center.We have many stripes running all over the place.One of the great things about here is that we are so big that anyone can believe just about anything they want to and live accordingly.I happen to be a libertarian which means I believe strongly in the idea of leave-me-aloneism.Were you aware that we have entire functioning communities of people who don't believe in technology that went beyond the 1890's and live in huge COMMUNES.They barter for bread and butter and chickens and corn and the like and have little to do with the likes of you or I who use computers.These people live in the midwest, we like to call them Amish and make silly movies poking fun at them or (as in the film Witness) show them as a great place to hide out when crooked cops are trying to kill you. We aren't afraid of communes or a communist-like system that runs "better than the Russians had because they just had not cuddly enough politicians." That's dumb thinking, never trust politicians who hold as their creed an amassing of power.That's where the Communists got it wrong, apart from the fact that they can't make fine chocolate.


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 26

Wood Nymph

Greed happens everywhere. It ranges in scale from something as small as taking more than one cookie from the cookie jar, to asking elderly people to sell their homes and legacies so some yuppie land developer can buy half a neighborhood and turn it into exclusive condominiums at a massive profit. To think that any economic theory, or any political system can eradicate a natural human impulse is to take optimism into the realm of insanity. What *is* wrong with America is that a natural human impulse which can only do harm is encouraged by the controllers of the media. What we know of other countries comes through the media, and ultimately almost all media in the Western world are controlled by a handful of white, wealthy men. The media encourage consumerism, ambition, greed, entrepreneurialism, selective education to the point of downright ignorance, etc. because it is in their interests that the great masses remain complacent. The inequities of multi-billionaires in the same city as welfare recipients and the homeless is a brutal reminder that greed can overtake freedom in pre-eminence. Americans refute the effectiveness of Communism, however, because to implement any form of it has always resulted in the revocation of freedom, and one of the best innovations of America has been a system of checks and balances to maintain individual liberties. When I see people from "Communist" countries on television or in the newspapers telling of human rights atrocities and why they needed to flee their homes, it reinforces the American view that we are free; when I see reports of American police brutality against Americans, it refutes that idea, yet the reasons for thousands of people fleeing China and Cuba, et al. are not eradicated by the existence of crimes in my own country. After having tutored dozens of students from other countries around the world, and had personal experiences recounted to me about their schools, churches (or lack thereof), friends and families, I've realized they all had a reason for believing they would be better off here in America. Some of them were rich before they arrived, and came here to protect that; some came to pursue the opportunities they could find here; some still barely eke out a living. They've had criticisms, (hoo boy have they!) but they also had the fundamental right to speak those criticisms aloud and even present them as writing to teachers paid with state funding. I'm not sure there are more than a handful of countries which would allow that right, or even defend that right for their detractors.


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 27

Blatherskite the Mugwump - Bandwidth Bandit

First of all, I can't believe the amount of stereotyping going on in here. This is rediculous. I thought Americans were supposed to be the narrow minded ones? Obviously that gene migrated here from England. But then again, someone once told me "don't try getting bigoted with the English; they've had more practice.

So, you wanna know why communism cannot possibly go right? Simple. Countries cannot be governed like small communities. Some country next door is always threatening, so you have to have an army. People will always break laws, so you have to have police. Those laws have to be written, so you have to have politicians. All of these people have power. Power corrupts. What will keep them in check? In a communist society, nobody has any power to put these people in check.

That's why it doesn't work politically. Now let's look at it economically. No matter what you say about the political organization, economically the Soviet Union was a true communism. Except for the Politburo, wealth was evenly distributed. What happened with that wealth? Nothing. the reason? No motivation. There was no reason to go into medicine, or electronics, or engineering. Those things are hard. They require dedication. Why dedicate yourself, when you can work in a restaurant for the same money? There's no reward for talent. No reward for initiative. So you get a bunch of third rate technologies, nuclear power plants that self-destruct, and vast pools of toxic waste over the Eastern Bloc countries. That's communism in its purest form.

But I must say, I love hearing all this "we have to be better than somebody" crap from one of the few people stupid enough to retain a monarchy. From the people of the most brutal empire in recorded history. For all of you who keep going out of your way to insult the rest of the world, I have news for you. The global community is here. So you better learn to get along with your neighbors. One more thing: you're going to lose Scotland soon.


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 28

Hoop the Mottle

Your description of those who "control" media is outdated.Those who control media more and more are "us".Thanks to the internet and the fact that for the last 25 years there have been huge programs to put minorities at the forefront of ownership and decisionmaking in media.How do I know? I am one. I have been for over 2o years now.Your evaluation of who is incorrect.Although , I do agree that we push the myth of success pretty hard. We take people of little means, dress them up and parade them before cameras as "winners" and the collective image becomes that of a status quo that does not exist. Fortunately, I am not part of this.I am humbly in the corner helping highlight and sell people's homes for them. The myth is discouraging and I do wish we could get a better reflection of reality in the media, but then who really would want that? True reality is hard to swallow sometimes.


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 29

Guru

Very true.

Rapper Keith Murray has a lyric that goes thus:

'Cause you can sell a million records and be wack, you can have mad skills, and don't ,sell jack.

I know there's quite a bit of slang flying about, but it nonetheless is saying the same thing, that much of the virtue in the world is beneath the surface.

The best rap is underground. Rappers pride themselves on 'staying true', and despise those, Mase, for example, who sell out. They are somehow massively successful, and hailed as the rappers of our generation, and yet they are the worst rappers around, their lyrics have no depth to them.

Rza, the 'sifu', if you will, of the Wu Tang Clan, who pride themselves on never losing their undergroung edge, calls this form of music R&B, (Rap and Bullshit). He feels it is the rape of the music he grew up with, that he holds so dear to him. Indeed, Wu-Tang do manage to keep the depth as they progress, although, i admit, their second album did not quite have the energy and vitality of the first. In fact, many of the rappers who wu brought up with them, as their disciples, are the furthest from the limelight. The Rebel INS is a member of the actual band, and has only this week released his own album, although he is one of the best MCs of our time.
The same goes for wu tang's first disciple group, Sunz Of Man, especially their front man, Killah Priest. One of his lyrics goes thus:

Early natives/related to the thrones of David/captured by some patriots and thrown on slave ships/they strip us naked/while their wives pick they favourite/lives were wasted/in the hands of the hated /driven from the gods/now we starving in this martyring sodom/they call it Harlem.

That's a song called One Step. Though the flavour of Wu does not always reflect life in today's ghetto, this is mainly due to their general theme, and their lyrics are deep enough to compensate, often providing metaphors for their early lives.

Tupac Shakur was branded public enemy number one by the president, but all he was doing was expressing the repression of his people, that he grew up with, and the depressions he faced throughout his life. He was, indeed, a loose cannon, and has perhaps given rap a bad name among people, like those who condemn him, who do not understand him.

And they ask me, when will the violence cease/when your troops stop shooting niggas down in the streets.

-I wonder If Heaven Got A Ghetto.

Goin insane/never die, i'll live eternal/who shall i fear?/don't shed a tear for me nigga, i ain't happy here/i hope they bury me and send me to me rest/headlines reading murdered to death/my last breath/
take a look, picture a crook on his last stand/
muthaf*ckas don't understand, if i die tonight.

-If I Die 2Nite.

Sorry, i seem to have gone off on a tangent. Oh well, my points are still valid, no matter how irrelevant they are.

bye.


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 30

FairlyStrange

I'm an old hippie. The lyrics and style have changed, but not the message. It's as full of sh*t now as it was then.

"With age comes wisdom"......A nation lead by it's youth is damned.

NM


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 31

Jenny and Fred the cheese

I try to be a hippy


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 32

Guru

I think somewhere in that you're agreeing with me. Unless you're viciously calling me a stupid bar steward.

I'm a young hippie - Jimi Hendrix is my idol, man. Oh, and Bob Marley too.

What can i say, i like rap too. I like Jazz (and all its forms), and soul, and Funk. Oh, and disco.

And, you know, a bit of drum and bass here, a bit of Vivaldi's concerto for two mandolins there, and a dash of salsa for good measure.

This may be beside the original point, but, you know, i think i like this forum better after the last few days.

(p.s. pop, garage, country and house can usually go to hell, but that Moloko song rocks)

bye.


PPS. can you believe that in the hundred tv moments of ALL TIME, the i have a dream speech was only number 64!)


America, greed, and filters of information

Post 33

FairlyStrange

Be careful who you take as idols. There is only one worthy, and it is you.

I try not to down anyone....If the music and the message are good, it's good music. Otherwise it's just noise created to amass wealth.

There is no "bad style" of music, just bad artists.

NM


On Nice Americans

Post 34

Iota Aurigae

"(pre judice - pre = before judice = judgement, prejudice = judging something from what it is, rather than what you expect it to be"

You seem very intelligent, so I will not have to explain what a stereotype is. Please try not to classify all Americans into one group of people. One of the one things that you can actually say about Americans is that they are quite a diverse group of people. Yes, a lot of them are rich, and do not care about the lower classes. And then there are those who help those who are less fortunate those whenever they can. Maybe the latter is minority, but they are still there.
Not all Americans are racist, out for only themselves, loud obnoxious and/or annoying. There are a lot that fall into one or more of these categories, but there are people like that in other countries.
Stereotypes are one of the few tihngs that can actually annoy me. I do not even get mad if I am insulted personally. But I do not like being judged for the country I live in. Did it ever occur to you that all Americans are proud of the country they live in? Myself, I think we were founded on a lot good principles, "liberty and justice for all" and such, but nothing works out quite as it should.
I do realize that maybe you did not intend to stereotype the whole country here, that you just wanted to tell someone who said something you disagreed with a thing or two. I understand this. But in the future, I would appreciate it if you did not refer to the entire population of a country as "You people" or just "you". Perhaps you only meant the person who you were responding to, but it certainly appeared that you were talking to the country as a whole.
Sincerely,
Iota Aurigae (a fifteen year old from Tennessee, who has indeed read and understood Animal Farm)


Let's stop arguing about this. It's getting petty, picky, we're using stereotypes to justify our contempt, we are repeating ourselves, etc. This forum has gone totally wrong. This forum has changed from something about how crap america is to a fight betwe

Post 35

Guru

I had planned on posting a long message here, apologising to all for my viciousness in my replies previously, and my irrational outbursts, but i had to write a script for a competition.

I had also been intending to reply to everything that i disagreed with on this forum, all in one go, but here goes:

Capitalism is a good idea, true, it would mean that everyone, no matter what their upbringing, would have the chance to live out their dreams.
This is why the french loved it, when they had their revolution.

Indeed, it would have worked, if it had been coupled with free and equal education for all, etc. so that your background really doesn't affect your chances. Free health, so that you don't lose your life savings when your son gets hit by a car. And some way of giving the unemployed, and the homeless some chance at sorting themselves out.

Generally, to make sure that nobody fell through any gaps.

Capitalism, however, also has a darker side. The exploitation, the elitist ideals, the constant barrage of advertising, and new products that must be bought, and a few people making all the money, and a hell of a lot living on the streets with nothing.

These are the things that make people in london wear che guevara T-shirts. Instead of merely condemning the stereotype Americans have in the minds of the british, you must regognise its origins. Every time someone says they are going to America, it is to go SHOPPING!!!! America makes us think Coca Cola, McDonalds, Television, Bill Gates, it's all about money. America is Macy's in the eyes of the world. The scary thing is that perhaps behind all the consuming, all the money, all the mind dissolving advertising and media bias, perhaps there's nothing. No personality to the country, nothing.
Just McDonalds.

This is the stereotype that we have. Fat ageing couples in track suits, and baseball caps, who never leave America, and watch hours of Television, and believe everything they are told, etc. No personality. That's what we hate.

In the same way that, in The Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air, the english butler's family are a lord and his daughter, and they have posh accents, because this is what you americans despise in England - the aristocracy, the class system (even though this is the primary goal of capitalism - the expansion of the gap between classes) the pomposity, the hereditary peers, the queen.

WE HATE THE ROYAL FAMILY TOO!!! We hate the class system, and those posh a*******s.

Of course nobody in England meets that stereotype. There are millions of friendly, open minded, wonderful people in britain, (and a lot of Right wing Tories who support the class system, because they are the aristocracy, and they want to be rich and powerful - these are the people who fit your stereotypes) , people like Jools Holland, Mark Thomas, Eddie Izzard, Billy Connoly, etc. and they are nothing like your stereotypes.

And, of course, there are millions of wonderful people in america, and of course america, like britain, is more than just its international stereotype. I've been to America many times, and there were lots of great people there. There are a lot of those track suit wearers who fit our stereotypes, and go to Nantucket, but they are hardly the whole country.


In the same way, Communism is a good idea. If it includes everything Karl Marx talked about, free education, everyone being equal, etc. Unfortunately, the same thing that ruins capitalism ruins communism - greed. Stalin got greedy, like Napoleon in animal farm. Made himself a feuhrer. Bastard.

And commmunism has a stereotype of poverty, and oppression, but this comes from the western trade embargoes handicapping progress, the onslaught of the cold war, and, of course, the cancer of Stalin. If communism had worked properly, it would have worked so well, and it makes me want to cry, because it feels like no-one sees this.


I agree totally, we have to stop thinking in stereotypes. We have to stop squabling between individual people, individual gangs, commmunities, countries, ideologies.

Marx talked about everyone being equal, and that is what we need. Communism could work, it could flourish, and we could see an end to the opression of people in compton while bill gates is a billionaire.



We could see an end to greed, and hunger. That's what is so great about Marx.



Anyone (including me) who refers to stereotypes, and says stupid, unproductive things, without a reason for what they say, and has a go at america, and americans, etc, or indeed at the english, or the french, or Communism, should really be ignored.

Just remember what i just said.


We could end greed and hunger.



thanks for your time. Sorry about everything.

Bye.


oops.

Post 36

Guru

The subject of thatb last post was too long tho fit. Here it is.


Let's stop arguing about this. It's getting petty, picky, we're using stereotypes to justify our contempt, we are repeating ourselves, etc. This forum has gone totally wrong. This forum has changed from something about how crap america is to a fight between capitalism and communism. I'd like you, for a moment, to put the squabbles about nice americans to one side, they're cluttering up what i'm trying to say, and my main points are getting lost in things that i dont notice when i write them, but other people do, and reply to them, offended, and ignore my main point. This, below, is my point.


On Nice Americans

Post 37

FairlyStrange

Iota Aurigae......I think you may have your definition backwards in your posting...no matter...anyone with any intelligence will see the reversal.

I am with you. I have grown quite tired of defending the citizens of our country. Especially since there is nothing to defend. We are who we are. No appologies. We are a mixture of every nation on earth, and if those same nations have a problem with what they have created....'tuff. Ya'll made us. If you don't like the results, you should have treated your people better.....then they would not have come here, and we would not exist.

NM


On Nice Americans

Post 38

FairlyStrange

Thanks.

NM


On Nice Americans

Post 39

DJatLarge

Ok.......I've been an American all my life....and this is quite the interesting conversation.
Yes, it is true that most American's would rather spit on you than buy you a cheeseburger and tell you to have a nice day.....but that is their perogative. Has nobody ever been to New York? That is one of the many fine places that we keep the mean people. If we keep them on the coasts and borders.....it may keep some of the French out.
Talk about rude people.
Who else would worship Jerry Lewis as a comedy icon?

What were we talking about again.

Oh yes....My point. If you don't like America, or American TV, or American Football......Stay out of America, don't watch the shows you hate instead of complaining about it.
Thank you....I'm off the soap box.
oh....and I love Monty Python stuff as well smiley - smiley


No Subject

Post 40

Guru


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