A Conversation for Chaos Magick

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 41

Gordon, Ringer of Bells, Keeper of Postal Codes and Maps No One Can Re-fold Properly

It occurs to me that Richard Metzger probably spent the six months between sending a sigil to TOPY and having sex with the girl actually getting to know the girl through conventional methods (ie: actually talking to her).

This also raises a significant ethical issue concerning the use of superpowers by someone who believes in them (even if they powers don't actually exist).

Regardless of whether Richard Metzger has sex as a teenager or not, I still don't think this entry is suitable for the EG, but that's my smiley - 2cents.


smiley - teasmiley - towel

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 42


Look dude this is really asking asking for the DPC to come stoming in. I'm sure one of them will be offended no matter how many different opinions there are on how to psychically experiment safely!

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 43

Apollyon - Grammar Fascist

Gordon: Maybe he did, maybe it was the sigil, maybe the sigil just gave him confidence in a Jungian sort of way. In any case, is there any real difference? He got what he wanted, so it doesn't especially matter how. However, good point on the ethical issues.

Oh, and this entry has been updated somewhat. For those who hate crowley, the quote by him has benn replaced by one from Hassan-i-sabbah.

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 44

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

'Look dude this is really asking asking for the DPC to come stoming in.'
And cast more fireballs? I can hear the twenty sided dice being rolled as I talk.

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 45

Gordon, Ringer of Bells, Keeper of Postal Codes and Maps No One Can Re-fold Properly

"Maybe he did, maybe it was the sigil, maybe the sigil just gave him confidence in a Jungian sort of way. In any case, is there any real difference? He got what he wanted, so it doesn't especially matter how."

For the purposes of this entry, yes, it does matter and there are differences. If the sigil did, in fact, permit Richard Metzger to have sex with the girl because of a paranormal property of the sigil it lends support to the argument that Chaos Magick is real. However, if it was a psychological effect then this supports the argument that Chaos Magick is not real, which is frankly what I believe.

So, if you're going to say there's no difference between the sigil working because it's a sigil and the sigil merely providing some sort of psychological support, then I suggest you should reconsider the validity of this entry.

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 46


How's this coming along?

smiley - panda

A2410417 - Chaos Magick

Post 47

Apollyon - Grammar Fascist

I've been meaning to do a bit of a rewrite, but have not gotten around to it. I'm going to remove it for a while, but it may come back.


Post 48


I take exception with calling Crowley a fraud. Please explain yourself.

I note that he joined and worked his way through the ranks of several occult orders that existed previous to him. It seems like a fraud would never have;
1 joined groups which were as legitimate and honored as existed in that feild
2 spent his entire life and inherited fortune perpetrating a fraud
3 Written countless volumes of very deep, complex, material which he never really made much money on.

Quantum reality

Post 49


I think to truly appreciate the non-linear, bending of the mechanistic, Newtonian model, cause
and effect you have to do a little reading on Quantum Mechanics. There are some startling things
in there. First events can have an effect any where in time i.e. what happens now can
retroactively effect the past. Second reality is subjective. Time and Space depend on the
observer, and without an observer there is no event, just a probability wave. Third , nothing is
quite what it seems. For example take Feyman’s sum over paths, A partical does not take one
route from point A to B it takes all of the possible routes. Or some particles spin in such away
that in order to see the same face they have to spin around not once 360 but twice 720.

I think Chaos (kaos) Magick is born out of trying to adapt old magick to this new understanding
of the universe.

Quantum reality

Post 50

Bread Sandwich

Its a shame this entry got no-where. I can understand that some people may not believe Chaos Magic works, and its their right to believe as such. I assume there's also no entries on h2g2 about Christianity or any other religion, as these too are not believed by everyone?

I was thinking of writing things on a similar vein to this, as its the area I research into the most. Is there any point in me doing that?

If Chaos Magic, which has been written about so widely, and in certain areas of the community is so influencial is not seen as a subject worthy of EG status, what is?

I don't mean to cause trouble. I just do not fully understand.

Quantum reality

Post 51

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

"I was thinking of writing things on a similar vein to this, as its the area I research into the most. Is there any point in me doing that?"

Probably not. The difference between an established religion and this sort of cult is that both are founded on myths but the latter more transparently so, having been dreamt up by either misbegotten individuals or frauds. Regarding the former, it's as easy to dismiss the underlying ideas but a lot less easy to dismiss their impact. Hence a historical and/or cultural perspective becomes a valid basis for an entry.

Let me bolster my argument with another example. Some fool wrote an EG entry some time ago about crop circles. The guy was a fool because he totally embraced the mystical explanation and *totally ignored* the fact that the hoaxers who produced these had come clean years ago. It still got in, but it shouldn't have done so. I gave it a very rough ride in PR. An entry on any kind of 'magick' is going to get an equally rough ride for exactly the same reason: that it's equally as self-deluding. Don't make a rod for your own back. Write about something a lot less contentious.

Quantum reality

Post 52

Bread Sandwich

I had thought that h2g2 was meant to be a reference guide. Some guy could come into contact with me and mine, or read a Grant Morrisson comic, or something of that sort, or get into an argument withe a Chaote and want to find out more about Chaos Magic. In my experience, h2g2 often provides concise and understandable explanations of complex topics. So it could theoretically come in handy.

I'd like to think my religion has had some effect on the world, and that it could conceivably be interesting or at least amusing to somebody. I think that in an edited guide entry on the topic, it would be useful to include a section on criticisms, though.

Quantum reality

Post 53

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

It's also meant to be rigorous (which is why we have PR) and factual. Chaos Magick is evidently a belief system, and if it is to be examined at all then it should be in such a context.

Quantum reality

Post 54

Bread Sandwich

I totally agree with you there. I'd hope that if I were to submit something on this topic people like you would help me make sure its philosophically neutral and written from a secular position. But that you wouldn't just oppose any information on the subject because you don't like the religion.

Problem is, a lot in this entry is pretty damn good, with some work, I can't see why it couldn't be made appropiate for the edited guide. whats the procedure in these kind of situations?

Quantum reality

Post 55

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

If the author doesn't want to rework it, it has to go to the Fleamarket first. Then you retrieve it, rewrite it so that it's balanced and objective, and resubmit it. Watch this thread.

Quantum reality

Post 56

Bread Sandwich

Awesome. Thanks, buddy.

Interesting article, just one quibble

Post 57


You write:-

"Then in 1976, Aleister Crowley, the self-proclaimed Great Beast 666, defined it as 'The art and science of causing change in conformity with will."

The tiny little problem with this is that in 1976, Crowley had been dead (in the conventional and generally accepted as convincing sense, ie of having gome to bed and not woken up again, followed by bodily decomposition) for twenty-seven years.

The entity known as Aleister Crowley having breathed his earthly last (reincarnation notwithstanding) in Hastings in 1949, how could he have been around to pronounce in 1976?

Of course, as a good Fortean, I have to consider ALL possible explanations, however unlikely, and keep a fairly open though sceptical mind, so the following do come to mind:-

i)Crowley faked his own death and might just conceivably still have been here in 1976 (this is pushing it, although not impossible, as he was born in 1875). Perhaps he ate at the burger bar where Elvis flips hash, and depended on Jim Morrison to keep him in heroin;

ii) A really good psychic medium communicated his words from the other side of the Abyss;

iii) Crowley, although discarnate, has some corporate form in another dimension and is still leading and guiding his followers;

iv) The person who surfaced claiming to be his illegitimate son (the Moonchild) is carrying on the Great Work;

v) the authour of this piece simply got the date wrong;

vi) in terms of Kaos Magic (as in quantum eigenstate), all and any of the above could be simultaneously true!

I keep an open mind about these things. I think I can safely divulge that my other half belongs to a coven of modern witches (who combine all five sorts of magic - "black" and "white" fuse into a relatively benign Grey, though).

What I can personally attest to having seen is the results of this Coven acting as a kind of Cats' Protection League with attitude - they have cast spells to punish and constrain people who have tortured and been cruel to cats.

(Example: a coven member took in a cat that had been maimed deliberately with a firework. The ladies gathered and performed a working. Three days later, a local shithead kid is admitted to hospital after a firework explodes in his hand, taking off three fingers on his left hand and damaging an eye. OK, anyone who plays with fireworks is more likely to be hurt by them - but the damage to the cat had been to cripple one paw and partially blind it. So an invocation to the goddess Bast to defend her own - cats - and bring about appropriate vengeance had worked, seemingly.)

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