A Conversation for The FootiNooti Society

But are flame wars always bad?

Post 21

Leo


Have I tranmogrified? (lovely word, thank you. even better than defenestrate.) Dunno. Have I?
*looks down*


Who am I again?

I think I need a vacation. I have vague recolections of a jet...


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 22

Wilma Neanderthal

Pssst, here, you'll need Calvin and Hobbes for transmogrified.

*hands over a dogeared comic*







* and a linen serviette *

* points gingerly *




You, em... yeah there, no it's yes. You got it.

*relief*


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 23

Wilma Neanderthal

a thousand pardons for the w*k* link but it is a good enuff one smiley - winkeye

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmogrifier

g'night, hun smiley - hug


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 24

Rev Nick { Only the dead are without fear }

*begins to wonder just what kinda loonies he's involved with, and are they any worse than the last bunch smiley - roflsmiley - spaceah well, bazooka's and smiley - fish are relatively harmless *smiley - erm


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 25

Deep Doo Doo

I seem to like these loonies, Rev. Dunno why, but hey they're fun!

I still think the smiley - fish stink though!



Not the sort of behaviour we expect from executives! smiley - biggrin


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 26

Leo

Ah... you want executive? smiley - biggrin No prob.

*shoves big polished mahogany desk forward*

*plunks multi-lined telephone on one end, and razor thin laptop on the other. Plunks Treo in middle.*

*arranges comfy leather swivel chair behind desk.*

*fills desk drawer with chocolate and cans of stimulants*

*memo pad and $50 pen go in the corner*

*impressive looking stack of papers and CDs go front-left in box labelled "IN"*

*intimidating stack of papers and folders go front-right, in box labelled "OUT"*

*trash can filled with shredded important looking documents goes to side of desk*



*stands back and dusts off hands*

Look right yet? Hold on while I change into my power suit.

*disappears and reappears in spiffy red suit holding attache case*

Am I missing anything?
Oh. Er, Wilma's desk is in the next office. *vaguely waves hand in some direction*


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 27

Wilma Neanderthal

Oy! smiley - cross Who nabbed my wiki link? smiley - rolleyes

*settles comfortably into her leather swivel chair*

smiley - ok


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 28

Wilma Neanderthal



Ah the power goes to your head smiley - biggrin

(my post is back)

smiley - whistle


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 29

kea ~ Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small, unregarded but very well read blue and white website

I can't tell yet if footinooti-ites have any serious intent or not, but I would like to reply to sprout's post 1


I tend to agree with the sentiment, that conflict is inherent and is part of the creative power of a community.

However I think there is a difference between conflict and flaming. Or more that flaming is a kind of conflict but not a particularly useful or helpful one. To me flaming is when someone starts relating from a place of strong emotion with little or no regard for the opinions or feelings or needs of others, and usually has a high agenda of getting their own exclusive need met (be it the need to be right, the need to be heard, the need to push other people's buttons, the need to be in control etc).

I agree it's ok to tell someone you don't like them at times. I disagree that it's ok to tell them this in any fashion that takes your fancy.

Once flaming reaches the war stage I think the only value really is in letting off steam. But as in any war there are going to be casulities and they may not be who or what you would expect.

There are ways of having healthy conflict in communities and alot of it's to do with respect. It's also about people upskilling at how they communicate.


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 30

Wilma Neanderthal

There are ways of having healthy conflict in communities and alot of
>>>it's to do with respect. <<<

May I, Kea?

smiley - applause


What kicked off the whole smiley - tongueincheek FootiNooti thing was the nastiness. A good argument is a very useful tool, nay an essential tool. It is the vehicle for challenging each other and growing intellectually and socially. With the premise that debating a topic is to do with shifting perception through education, if I have an opinion that opposes your own, our purpose in discussing it is for each of us to educate the other on our pov. So I give you my side, you give me yours and we try to convince each other. Not with a cyber sledgehammer or virtual mallet but with information and reason. Inherent in this is the acceptance that one or the other may shift perception or... if not, then hopefully agree to disagree.

Given that one purpose is to learn something new, we need to 'listen' to each other. Given that another purpose is to change another's view, we need to offer our information/opinion in a way that it will be 'listened' to. This is in terms of seeking the desired outcome of education.

Where it falls apart is, say, in a thread that has researchers who have come to clangers in the past and they start dredging up obscure references to past events that the rest of us newbies don't really care about. fairynuff, you may say... however, I have no problem if this is in personal spaces - it is when it is in the public arena that it does not work. Occasionally there are all out mud slinging matches going on with the most irritating one liners and personal insults going on. Hit and runs, if you like. nasty stuff. Some people have said these are funny or fun. I liken them to pulling wings off flies smiley - yuk

Having said all of that, the FootiNooti society is absolutely not about waging a war of vengeance. We have set this up to say that this is how we (people who have signed up, that is) think debate works best. I guess what we are also saying is that life is too short. Hootoo is a cyber space, a very special one. There are plenty of other cyber places for all out war but what makes this place so incredibly unique is its inherently civilised sense of community, British satire and welcoming hearth - in this I include places like PR and the rest. I don't mean it is a softy environment as it is plenty challenging, both intellectually and in terms of personality.

The humour helps too smiley - rofl

smiley - ok

Wilma


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 31

kea ~ Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small, unregarded but very well read blue and white website

Good one Wilma. I especially like this:

>>
Given that one purpose is to learn something new, we need to 'listen' to each other. Given that another purpose is to change another's view, we need to offer our information/opinion in a way that it will be 'listened' to. This is in terms of seeking the desired outcome of education.
<<

There was a convo, last year I think, where someone asked people why they debate in places like Ask or the Forum. I remember that the huge majority of people said it was to convince other people of their argument or belief. However at the time I didn't take this in the way that you just described (wanting to educate alongside wanting to learn). Mostly it looked to me like a whole bunch of people who wanted to be right smiley - erm I'm sure it's not quite that bad, but I did find the thread incredibly depressing.

*

I'm still unclear if footinooti is serious. I found the A page to be so full of fluff and silliness to the point of almost not making sense (and I was there when the term was coined). Ditto this thread which seemed to have started seriously enough but is in fact full of silliness. Is that a norm for footinooti convos?

Not that I have anything agin silliness, it's just not something I'd serve up with a genuine attempt at education about communicating.


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 32

Wilma Neanderthal

smiley - biggrin

Consider the silliness an antidote. smiley - rofl

Perhaps it appears to undermine the serious nature of the issues at hand - debate, education, social behaviour - but at the end of the day, I think that is why so many of those threads come unstuck. People tend to take themselves a their points of view a tad tooooo seriously sometimes.

In what sense are you enquiring as to the seriousness of FootiNooti? If you mean is it a lobbying movement, then yes, I guess in a way it is but we are not advocating a campaign to convert anyone, we are simply promoting a code of conduct. Those of us who, if you like, *wish* there was more cooperative debate and less public flaming and trolling are the ones who have signed up. Signing up does not mean that we have to change anything we do or say, it just means that we are stating this is the way we wish things would be. Fluffy enough smiley - winkeye ?

To be fair, even the so-called FootiNooti Patrol (which does not exist, btw) promotes no more than a peaceful nudge towards cooperation in threads. In fact, as I have said elsewhere, the only person to have done anything like a FootiNooti Patrol action recently (that I am aware of) is totally against the apparent nambypambyness of FootiNooti.

... and I think that is brilliant smiley - ok
W


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 33

Wilma Neanderthal

oops, forgot to say:

I personally think hootoo works very well 99 pc of the time. FootiNooti does not necessarily *need* to be anymore than it is right now because it would be totally over the top overkill. Just my perception, if you like.

smiley - ok
W


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 34

kea ~ Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small, unregarded but very well read blue and white website

>>
Those of us who, if you like, *wish* there was more cooperative debate and less public flaming and trolling are the ones who have signed up. Signing up does not mean that we have to change anything we do or say, it just means that we are stating this is the way we wish things would be. Fluffy enoughsmiley - winkeye ?
<<

So essentially it's a group of people engaged in wishful thinking smiley - winkeye Yeah, fluffy enough smiley - ok Still not sure what the point is though. Is it a kind of feel-good, pat each other on the back kind of club? (maybe I should join smiley - bigeyes)


>>we are simply promoting a code of conduct<<

Which would be what?


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 35

Wilma Neanderthal

code of conduct: keeping on topic in debates.... I guess.

There are plenty of 'societies' on hootoo that do nothing but identify their members.. Pheloxi's Friends, Ducky's Crazy People United... our only radical member is Leo with the frothing wild eyed fish-firing bazooka smiley - rofl It is all smiley - tongueincheek, Kea smiley - hug

















smiley - boing Join! Join!


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 36

kea ~ Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small, unregarded but very well read blue and white website

>>It is all smiley - tongueincheek<<

That's all I needed to know smiley - ok

It is curious how you are getting so much serious discussion though.



The thing I love is that wasn't Leo one of the biggest brats on the block when he first joined h2? smiley - devil


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 37

azahar

<> (kea)

Well, quite. And some people might see conflict as flaming, when this isn't necessarily the case.

<> (Wilma)

Which is fair enough, but forming a club to do this smacks of an 'we're right and you're wrong' approach.

<> (Wilma)

Interestingly or otherwise, I spoke to both people on and offsite about that thread, and both were quite willing to see the other person's point of view. I did this on a personal level as I consider both of them to be my friends and I thought they were getting caught up in misunderstanding each other - which turned out to be the case.

The thing is, tempers *can* flare up sometimes on a serious debate thread, and often this does end up with some very interesting debate taking place. This is not flaming.

I would personally hate to feel that getting emotional or upset on a thread would suddenly be taken as 'flaming' . . . quite like how sometimes people get accused of 'trolling' when they are just being annoying.

I don't do ad hominem attacks myself. And when I see the *very* occasional researcher resort to this I feel that they have already lost their argument. But it all makes for interesting reading. I truly wouldn't want to partake of a totally 'sanitized' debate forum where we all had to mind our P's and Q's so much that we could never express an honest opinion, just in case it upset *somebody*.

az


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 38

sprout

Different Leo I think.

Thanks for your views Kea.

I'm not sure whether the 'insult' threads are damaging or not. Are the participants playing, getting something out of their system in a more or less healthy way, or is it hurting them? I would have opted for the former rather than the latter on most of the ones I've seen.

And yes I agree that the Footinoti movement does seem to be an odd mix of things - a club, but also potentially with a hint of menace (passive-agressive menace admittedly) for those that don't conform. The threads hanging off are an intriguing mixture of 90% fluffy but with some pointed remarks. Like a baby polar bear perhaps - looks cute until you see the teeth?

Having said that, I can only concur with Wilma - in practice there are not doves being released all over the place, so no problem. Lets see how it evolves.

sprout


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 39

Wilma Neanderthal

smiley - somersault

but *exactly* az! The point is that noone has FootiNootied anyone (well, except for you that is smiley - hug) and that is the brilliant thing about it. By setting this up we (including you) have started up a very healthy debate on debate... many of *your* ideas are in there, you know. Pheloxi's United Friends... think about it. Does anyone necessarily *do* anything there, let alone going around with a bottle of dettol spraying everyone who opens their mouth??!? Why have so many many researchers joined it? It is a label, if you like. I am still stuck on what the problem is, other than the fact that we have put the ideas together in an entry and called it a 'club'. You are the prime example of a hootoo researcher who promotes cooperation among debaters. I have seen you do it and I think it is great.

... and Leo is great smiley - winkeye and not a he at all, at all </>

oops, let the cat out of the bag smiley - yikes

smiley - run


But are flame wars always bad?

Post 40

Wilma Neanderthal

Oops, sorry, sprout, didn't see you there smiley - ok


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