A Conversation for Renaissance Art

the real renaissance

Post 1

orbitalbob2

after much research and re examination of the most well known renaissance pieces I insist that there was much more to the work of Italian renaissance masters.

Early world maps hidden in the last supper and as two global views within the two seperated sister paintings of Boticelli - The Birth of Venus and La Primavera (birth of venus had 13cm cropped from the top. Michelangelos Creation of Adam does not depict God and Adam but rather the figure of Amerigo Vespucci and different stages of his life, all with the map of the world neatly fitting into his outstreched frames.

The figures from Boticellis works being translated into da Vincis last supper.

All difficult to perceive without looking - www.orbitalbob.com renaissance galleries.


the real renaissance

Post 2

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Many, many pictures were cut off and so. The Mona Lisa was cut off at the sides. There were collumns.

Early world maps?

Botticelli's figures? But Da Vinci went out into the street and made sketches of people and then put them into his Last Supper, at least that's the version I know.


the real renaissance

Post 3

orbitalbob2

thats is also the theory i knew, however - the last supper is much more meaningful than originally perceived, my guess is that even if da vinci can be qoted as saying he spent time in the streets searching for "real" people that it was just a device to allow him more time with other pet projects. Or perhaps waiting on images of the people that are really depicted. The last supper is very far removed from what we are meant to see, i dont believe that it is religous at all.


the real renaissance

Post 4

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

smiley - groan I hate these theories. I know that da Vinci probably wasn't really religious, but all these theories go too far for me.
And yes, his other projects were in the end more important for him, like designing all these machines and so. Or his anatomical studies.

In the Last Supper are enough symbols *without* all these these theories. No idea why people are so incredibly fond of them.

He can't be quoted I think (don't know), but they found sketches of peopople he drew in the streets and later he used them for the Last Supper.


the real renaissance

Post 5

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

And now plese explain me the thing with the world maps and what you think the Last Supper means.
(please don't tell me you read it all in the Da Vinci Code or so... smiley - groan)


the real renaissance

Post 6

orbitalbob2

i fu look at my website u can see for yourself - www.orbitalbob.com

Th elast supper doesnt resemble anything religious, the 2 central figures (jesus+john) have a remarkable resemblence to the Venus figures in La Primavera and The birth of Venus.

These 2 paintings are sister paintings although the birth of venus was cropped and they have not been seen hanging together since.

My thoughts are that the last supper is more political in execution and holds portraits of regality and the church, the message i feel da vinci was trying to give was that the world is not for squabbling over, it belongs to everyone and that we shouldnt fight over its beauty. - Thats what i get anyway.

Im not into the da vinci code or anty weitd theories, but, when u come across so many coincidences, its difficult not to try to tell people to see what they think. I'll leave u to make your own mind up!


the real renaissance

Post 7

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

smiley - laugh
1)I don't know, the Venus maybe holds her head vaguely like John.
2)The Last Supper has been over painted so often in the last ceturies that you can often hardly make out what da Vinci really painted.
3) have you ever had a look at Da Vinci's last painting? Somehow his John just always looks like that

allright, now I'll have a look on your website


the real renaissance

Post 8

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Allright, I had a look. And yes, I am rather sure that you can do these things with nearly every picture you find. If you try hard enough I am sure you could also find the CSS Enterprise in every picture you see.

It doesn't really work for the last supper, eh?smiley - winkeyesmiley - laugh The outlines of your map and the outlines of the figures are just totally different.
In fact none of these map-thingies *really* works. I can see that you try hard, yes, but is just doesn't work.smiley - cheerup


the real renaissance

Post 9

orbitalbob2

i still think its too much of a coincidence that 3 florentine artists, many works by bottiecli, so far only one by da vinci and michelangelo, painted around the same time as america was being mapped with florence being the intelectual capital of its day.

Ive tried fitting maps into other works as i had a fear that that was what i was doing - seeing maps everywhere, but it doesnt work, sure u might find an odd image but for these works to contain such material is at lweast suspicous?

I have scanned through hundreds of images and while i can see influences and simlarities I have not found any evidence for maps. Boticelli seems to be the originator and michelangelo the end.

I have not published all my findings onto the internet as yet, I wanted to get a reaction to the paintings themselves at first, I will be posting a more detailed analysis in the near future.

Im glad you have responded in any case, its good to be able to get a broad spectrum of thought.


the real renaissance

Post 10

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

I showed this conversation to a friend and (I didn't think of it) she's right: in this time the centre of the map would certainly be Jerusalem, it wouldn't look like the ones we have today.
Also you seem to stretch and squeeze things. Sorry, but it just doesn't fit.
The way Jesus and John hold their heads can be found in many pictures and of many figures, it's nothing I'd give too much thought.

The painting of da Vinci I mentioned before, his last one, it this:
http://www.statenvertaling.net/beeld/doper_vinci_grt.jpg
You will see that the head is again like the one in the Last Supper.

I especially think that the map you put into the Last Supper doesn't fit at all. It's not about maps, it's all about triangles and stuff.

No, it doesn't make me suspicious at all. It just doesn't fit well enough.

Ah! See, I found one of the sketches for the last supper:
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/l/leonardo/leonardo_study_supper.jpg
You see that it's an early stage, as Judas is still sitting on the opposite side of the table. You also see that Jesus has his neck bent to the other side. Can't say who is John. Maybe the 3rd from the right.


the real renaissance

Post 11

orbitalbob2

theres an original map shown in la prima vera, i had to use modern day maps as i do not know what information on cartography they had to hand, the florentine map circa 1505 fits into the pieces shown.

Also the cartography shown marries very well with the outlines of the models, the tablecloth alligns with the tropic of cancer and the mediteranean sea fits neatly onto the central bowl.

Granted it is not an exact fit but how can it be if i have used a modern map? Nevertheless I will stand by my theory, im sure lots of people will rip it to shreds but to me its makes much more sense that current views.

jerusalem may have been the religous capital, the artists involved here are known for being athiests so it wouldnt matter.

im not saying you have to believe but just because you think it doesnt make it so, i will keep my mind open.


the real renaissance

Post 12

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Did you have a look at the link? If the picture would be oriented at a map it would certainly look different. Or do you think he didn't have this idea from the start?
You do not comment my arguments at all.

You're right, they were atheists, or at least that's what it said. But drawing Jerusalem in the centre of maps was traditional. Like... I'm an atheist, too and still I have christmas. (maybe not the best example, I know)

I know that I won't be able to show you that your theories don't work.

You see, the fact that you don't know which information they had at this time is maybe one of your problems. How much research did you do? How much research did you do about the history of the paintings you mention? Did you look at sketches if they exist (like in the last supper)? Did you learn about arts history and the interpretations other people have?

You always put in the whole of Northern America, but how much of it did they really know? Certainly not that much.

1492:
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/1492.exhibit/full-images/world.gif

And you also put America into the Priavera and the Birth of the Venus, didn't you? Did you check the dates? Now don't tell me, that this isn't a problem. They're from 1482 and 1484. Now tell me when they found America...

I found a good page for you maybe:
http://www.carto.com/chighlights/world.html
the first map with America on it is from 1545

http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/s4.htm
a map from 1507. America is there, but look ar the shape. They only knew the eastern coastline, and it doesn't look right. And in the centre is Jerusalem.


the real renaissance

Post 13

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

oh! I just realized: that *is* the map you used! But it's from 1507. It doesn't work for the Primavera or the Birth of Venus. For the Last Supper neither. It was only before the Sistine Chapel.


the real renaissance

Post 14

orbitalbob2

The actual date is unknown (circa), maps were very much sought after, even if that map was published ca 1505(from my research) the information would have been available previously.

The recent bestseller by Gavin Menzies - 1421 also indicates that there would have been cartography available to utilise by those with connections in that field.

Boticelli was a family friend of the Vespucci and Da Vinci was most probably aquainted with them as he was responsible for Simonetta Vespuccis death mask (the main model in The Birth of Venus and also as Flora in La Primavera).


the real renaissance

Post 15

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Of course there was cartography before, yes.

Well, still America wasn't found until 1492, and how much did they know of it then? A few islands and then parts of the eastern coast or so. Sorry, Birth of Venus and Primavera just don't work. They are too early.
And as I said, the Last Supper just doesn't look like the map you put into it at all.
The only picture where I maybe can see vague resemblance is the one by Michelangelo.

Allright, the dates are circa, good, but still there can't be *that* much of a mistake. You can draw the connections in arts history and see that the pictures were painted at hat time. And I'm sure that ats historians can sort these things out. Even if they were wrong 10 years it still doesn't work.


the real renaissance

Post 16

orbitalbob2

According to Gavin Menzies, author of 1421, that was the year that the Chinese discovered America, America was also inhabited before we got there.

Michelangelos Creation of Adam was the first painting I discovered the map in and was a chance find, The painting and the Animation are different as I now believe my original painting was incorrect in that it held the majority of earths land masses.

The animation shows a much better fit of america but is now completely out of scale to eurasia. I believe this to be correct however as it would have been the last in the series of works and may have been misunderstood by Michelangelo.

Boticelli worked with Michelangelo at the same time in the Vatican towards the end of his life, Michelangelo finished the Sistine chapel in 1512, the same year that Amerigo Vespucci died.

I believe that maps were available previous to 1505, Lorenzo Medici was famous for hoarding fascinating objects in the Medici household which is now a museum.

The lines of the sister paintings fit very well, the maps are to scale and even the islands of the pacific are more or less perfectly eclipsed by the flowers in The birth of Venus. The last supper - as I have stated was probably based on other cartography, but again, to scale the it fits, the atlantic isnt there but that could be down to artisic licence to show the main land masse.

If it were a perfect map then that is what you would see when you looked at it, the contours of Europe fit very well, Hudson may is marked out by the crouched figure whos head does not hold any space of its own, Portgal and Americas East coast are touching within the hands of Jesus and John - or the two venus's as I see it, the tip of siberia neatly folds into the sleeve of the figure at the end of the table and the knife marks another anomoly that I am currently investigating which ties in with similar in Birth of Venus.


the real renaissance

Post 17

Tavaron da Quirm - Arts Editor

Of course it was inhabited before, people came there much earlier, but I don't believe that any native americans of that time sent maps to Europe.
Good and if the chinese have discoveres America they would certainly have landed on the Pacific coast,but your maps always show the Atlantic coast.

I just had another look at the sistine chapel in one of my books. No. Doesn't work. It's too different form a map. Sorry.

Jesus is just a usual triangle. One hand open to the sky/heaven and one hand down to earth. He is wearing the usual colours of red and blue, which mean the same.



smiley - yawn sorry, it's too late for such discussions today, I'll be back tomorrow


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