A Conversation for Wicca - a Legacy of Persecution

Wicca is not ancient

Post 141


Wicca didn’t exist prior to Gardner, the idea simply doesn’t work and shows your hand when it comes to your claims of being Wicca, witchcraft, Paganism, Eastern philosophy, Freemasonry and so on all existed prior to Gardner but it was not put together in the way in which Gardner did to form Wicca – Wicca simply did not exist prior to Gardner, priesthoods and other similar groupings maybe, but not Wicca.
The chances of soemthing just like Wicca to have existed before it was invented is very slim to say the least.

Wicca is an initiatory ‘religion’ one cannot be Wicca unless initiated or hereditary, if you were in fact born into it then you would have certainly known what it is called, what it is about and when/how it was founded.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 142


Wicca didn't exist then, it was Gardner who founded the priesthood before him there may well have been witchcraft, paganism, eastern philosophy, freemasonry and the like, Gardner after all didn't pull these ideas out of thin air, however the fact remains that Gardner brought these together with other influences to create something that was very unlikely to have existed prior to Gardner founding Wicca. Wicca did not exist prior to Gardner, not in the sense we are speaking.

I doubt very much that you are Wicca at all, let alone Wicca since birth, Wicca are either initiate (usually done at the age of 18+) or hereditary, neither case supports your claim, if you were Wicca through initiation then you would not have been old enough at 14 let alone birth, if you were hereditary then you would have known not only the name of the religion but also know about Wicca itself. You can’t follow Wicca if you don't know it exists, it is far too obscure a combination, far too much of a dogmatic and involved religion for you to be Wicca without knowing it and Seekers can spend many years looking for a coven, if a coven were to take anyone it simply wouldn’t work, even more so if it is a child (not to mention the risks to the child in joining a coven – I worked for APRIS, I've seen it happen, this is why covens have such strict guidelines on age, one of the many reasons why under 18's claiming to be Wicca without hereditary lineage are usually blowing it out their back side).

Your showing your hand, it's called wilful ignorance, which is far more of an issue than any persecution, as recent issues plaguing the pagan community have shown. Children wanting to join a fad and passing on misinformation has done a lot more damage to Wicca than any supposed persecution could ever do. It's no secret that Wicca is oath bound, lineage, occult/mystery and initiate only, but then why research a religion when you can impress your friends with made up 'knowledge'?

Wicca is not ancient

Post 143


okay, I have thought on this for a long time now (about 25 minutes :P) and have come to determine this:

Wicca, as a religion, may or may not be an ancient religion... no one can possibly say for sure, at least not untill someone figures out how exactly to travel through time... so lets go with the benefit of the doubt and say that it is.

Because paganism, and more specificaly Wicca is a (how should I put this?) "self" religion, meaning that those who follow it (myself included) need only an love for life and everything in it, and an awarness of ones self, we do not need any special place to practice and therefore we will not find any archeological proof of ancient wiccans.

As for the name 'Wicca', I believe that it is actualy older than it seams, because the word "witch" is a dirivitive of the old english pronunciation of wicca or "Witcha"....

So, unless you can prove to me beyond a resonable doubt that wicca is not ancient, I am going to believe that it is....

Thank you and good night

Wicca is not ancient

Post 144

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Well belief what religion is all about is it?
To have faith without proof.
Against proof?
Just asking.
smiley - winkeye
smiley - blackcat

Wicca is not ancient

Post 145


Some people can be so naive **rolls eyes**

Of course it is ancient, Just because it was given a different name in order to avoid persecution and misinformation it i still the same ancient pre-christian religion.

So using your logic If I change my name when i'm 30, when I turn 35 I will have only existed for 5 years.

I strongy suggest you review your argument and avoid further embarrassment.

--Religion is the human response to being alive and having to die--

Wicca is not ancient

Post 146

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

I doubt that there was a thing like "a prechristian religion". There were several. Seems to me the one place to look for traces paradoxically is christianity itself, or rather the local variations/deviations.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 147


The beliefs are ancientthe word may not be (does it matter?) Not being one to shy away from controversy I will say that Wicca is a subset of the old Goddess beliefs that were oppressed when somewhere in the middle east, around the time of a well known woman hater now known as Exekiel, men's awe of females sexuality turned to loathing. Prior to Ezekiel the religion of the people of Judea had been identical to that of the Philistines, their rulers (the Bible is fiction and fairy stories)and female deities were worshipped alongside the male ones. Names for the high god varied from region to region, Baal (Lord) Marduk or Zephon being popular but he was an identical triplet of the Egyptian Thoth or the Greco - Phonecian Hermes Trismegistos.

So the wisdom of those who served the Goddess had to go underground, women who were smart enough to take an infusion of raspberry leaves to relieve the pain of childbirth were burned as witches and men strutted around worshipping their todgers (except for those of us the Goddess chose as her lovers smiley - biggrin. And that is pretty much how things have gone on ever since. Not old - why Jehovah is a mere whippersnapper by comparison.

Boggart Blog

Wicca is not ancient

Post 148


Another point of view on your comment is that Wicca is a selfLESS belief system (its not a religion as it does not have rules) because it centres on a love of the whole, and not simply on piling up brownie points with god towards one's own salvation.

Check out what Dagda, the original God (and still the best) thinks at God's Blog

Wicca is not ancient

Post 149

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

The worship of Goddesses and Gods was spread wide before the advent of monotheic religions, which assumed the maleness of the highest on account of the mostly patriarchal societies. A lot might be said about that, but would lead astray from the matter in hand.
The ancient Godess cults were not about love of the earth and kindness of it all, but of ritual and sacrifice to keep the world in it's courses. Just look at Nerthus or at Kali or at the basics of the Isis-Osiris cult. Goddess worship, both as virgin goddess and mother goddess, has sneaked into christianity by the backdoor of the Mary cult, as becomes quite clear when looking at the symbolism, and that was about the only continuity that has reached unbroken to this day.
Wicca does not stand in the tradition of those ancient Goddess cults, nor of dispersed remnants of rural beliefs, it's purely New Age. And I might add, purely a townie thingy.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 150


I agree Wicca is not from olden times, dear me no, just read up about the ideas that became so 'cool' in the 1920's right through to World War II.
The middle class, the wealthy, in particular the aristocrats of the day, adopted these 'New Age' ideas, and created a climate of 'Wiccan' myths.

I suggest that the history of the Tarot is further evidence of the desire to create a modern mythology. Waites, who created the Rider deck, so widely used today (yes, there are many other decks) was heavily into 'The Kabbalah'. He changed many of the Tarot images, influenced by the craze for the occult: the creation of the society 'The Golden Dawn, was a direct result of the new ideas, but of course it was a toy for the wealthy.

To say that Wicca is ancient, is to ignore the hard facts of our past - it is a modern developent, it is a newly created mythology.
And to anyone who enjoys the modern rituals of Wicca, fine, enjoy them, greet your colleagues with 'Blessed Be' and all the other fake Olde English terminology, that never existed.

But don't kid yourself that Wicca is ancient.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 151


Wicca is first referred to in the medieval period - particularly in the penitentials, and many times after. What is post war is Gardnerian Wicca but that is only one variant - many Wiccans are not Gardnerian. As another writer noted Gardner followed Wica. Wicca became the term used after Gardner died and is more authentic to the original.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 152

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

What medieval references to Wicca are there? I only ever found references to witchcraft.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 153


Well I like to check this old thread once every 3 years or so, and it seems the last post was about 3 years ago, probably after my last check. This last page seems interesting as they ignore the previous "century" plus of posts before it, and still try to make claims that Wicca is indeed ancient. If there is indeed reference to wicca in penitentials, this brings up the curious question as of why someone practicing another religion would go to a Christian confession?

Wicca the NAME was not the only thing invented in 1949, many of the PRACTICES are JUST AS MODERN. Gardner may have been inspired by older mystery traditions, but any connection to actual ancient practices are surely reconstructions and were not transmitted to Gardner from an unbroken line going back millenia, but probably more likely decades.

Wicca is not ancient

Post 154

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

I find no fault with your reasoning.

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