h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ha ha can't stop laughing, where have I said I support the Palestinian suicide bombers, please show me where. Just one line go on, well sorry I have not.
As for Isrealie morality sorry mister so called informed they have raped women and they have torturted prioners and I think if we are going to debate these issues aload of abuse is not the right way to go.

Adib

Salaam Jaked Jack,

well I don't really look much stuff up on line but here are a few sites which has some information on Palestine.

http://www.aqsa.org.uk
http://www.al-awda.org.uk
http://www.palestinecampaign.org
http://www.unrwa.org
http://www.isb.org.uk
http://www.mabonline.net
http://www.stopwar.org.uk

I can't recommend any books as I can't remember the titles of any I have read but I have plenty of leaflets on the subject of Palestine.
I did some work at a demonstration in Birmingham two years ago where I got hold of thousands of leaflets.
My e-mail address is [email protected] so if you want any I can post some to you, or you can try and get some from aqsa but they may charge.

For now and partly to do with mister "I'm right you disagree so your dumb ok?" guy I will put some more details and I will leave out the very bad ones. I will put them in Latter if any one wants to know.

The Isreali goverment has killed over 435 children since the year 2000.

It has confiscated over 750,000 acres of land

Cars owned by Palestinians are colour coded to distinguish between jews and non jews.

Isreal allots 85% of water resources for jes and 15% is divided amoungst all palestinians
In Hebron for example 85% of water is given to about 5400 jewish settlers and 15% is divided amougst 120,000 Palestinians who live there.
Thats the equilivent of 547 lit aday for jewish settlers and 58 lit a day for the palestinians.

In the first year of the second Intifada Isreal arrested over 19000 Palestinians of which around 600 where below 16.

Palestinians have a right to return as declared in the universal declaration of human rights and this is supported by United Nations resolution 194(December 1948) which was adopted one day after the International declaration of human rights.

Isreal stands in difience of 69 UN security council resolutions and has been protected by a further 29 by US vetoes.
(Iraq stood in difience of 17)

Isreal is the only middle eastern country not to sign the nuclear proliferation treaty and bars international weapon inspecters from its sites.

America also does not allow international weapon insepecters to its sites.
There goes another reason why we went to war with Iraq.

The land the zionists call Isreal was the site of more than 400 now vanished Palestinian villages and the Isrealie regime renamed almost every pphysical site in the country to cover up the traces.

I have to go now I have a Demo to help build.

An ignore what the other guy says, read all the facts and then make up your mind who you support. Remember just because one says white and one says black grey is not the truth.

adib

Personal insults aside, l agree my original posting was a little sparse on detail and perhaps a little crude. It needs to be clarified. I'll deal with the issue of Zionism and the nature of the Israeli state in detail in a later posting. For now, all i ask is this - how can an enemy who routinely bulldozes the homes of Palestinians be thought of in any way as moral? Do you deny that women and children have been killed by the Israeli army? Unless you believe that the Israeli occupation has to be defended and upheld by any means, then these things cannot be 'moral' or seen as somehow separate. When a serial killer goes out and murders four women, it's irrelevant that he's nice to his wife and children when he comes home. He's still a serial killer. 'Beyond the political situation, the Israeli army is probably one of the most moral armies'. There is nothing beyond the political situation! Armies, be they British, American or Israeli only exists to defend the political situation. They are there to fight anyone who opposes the political situation. Please, for your own sake and my stupidity, rethink that statement!

It seems odd that you waited until this posting to add that you're working in an anti occupation organization in Israel (Wouldn’t that be Palestine?) Why would you forget to mention something like that? Which organization is this exactly? Something like that must be a major part of your life. If you're currently living in the occupied territories, it must be your ENTIRE LIFE. Forgive my cynicism, but I find it hard to believe that someone dedicated to a cause like this, would not use this as the starting point for their rebuke. Maybe you were so angry at my stupidity; you simply forgot who you are. Never mind, this happens to me all the time. I often mislay who I am and what I do.

Just to end this posting, let me make it quite clear, I have no problem with the words ‘I HATE…’ I hate imperialism. I hate the domination and occupation of one country by another. I hate war. I hate the deaths, the mutilations. I hate the pain and the suffering of ordinary men, women and children the world over. Be they Jews or gentiles. For those reasons alone, I hate the Israeli state and all the agencies of oppression at its disposal. If that is childish, then hallelujah, I’m a child. How about you? Do you just merely dislike these things? Maybe you just view them as a mild irritant? How can there be any in between?

By the way i have read hundreds of books on the Israel/Palestinian question. I also read newspapers and take part in debates on this question and many others. I consider myself reasonably well informed and free from the grip of islamic fundamentalists. I will now ask you the same question i asked Abib can you reccomend any good books/websites/reading material, that deal with this question? I recommend http://www.bookmarks.uk.com their middle east section is second to none.

Salaam,

Nicely said Jagged Jack.

Now the nfor mister pro Isreal regime guy, You can insul us, get angry or what ever, but that really just shows why so many Muslims actually do dislike Isreal and the Jews who live there.
Or you can do the sensible thing and control your anger and have a reasonable discussion on the subject.
Just because some one has a different opinion does not make them dumb it just means we have had different expereinces that show different things.

I am pretty sure that any debate we have which is not just insulting each other would be a valouble thing on this site.

I do look forward to hearing your views of why you believe what you do.

Adib

One more thing, I am currently writing a article on the history of Isreal and Palestine.

So when its finished I would appreciate any of your comments.

Adib

Hi AmericanNamedBob,
Let me tell you this Bob,I'm not sorry, I'm proud to stand side by side with all Americans.

TLG

Do you mean your proud to be an American, Or that your proud of your countries actions?

Adib

Hi Muzaakboy,
No, I'm proud of being British, and I'm proud to stand with anybody that is willing to stop any person trying to terrories the world over relegion, I was a Soldier in N/Irland and a few other places, there I saw people killing other people just because they preyed to God a different way to them.

I respect other peoples feeling and beliefs, at the same time they should respect mine.

TLG.

I do not have a problem with stopping terrorism, but do you think it is right to go and bomb a whole country and invade it, and kill thousands of innocent people, to allinate all the future people of the country towards the west just to get revenge on some thing that they have not revealed any proof over i.e Sept 11th with Osama bin Laden, where is the proof he was resoncible, also why attack Afganisatan and make the situation worse.

Yes Osama is a bad man, his not even a Muslim as far as following the faith goes, and so he should be stopped, but to make it just they should prove he was responcibel and give us that proof, also to strike at him and not just bomb every thing.

E.g They spent five days bombing a small village that had no military or police presence in Afganistan.

Also if it is ok to bomb a whole country because of a organisations terrorist strike against a western country, then why don't we bomb Ireland becaused of the IRA?

Yes all countries should stand shoulder to shoulder to get rid of terrorism but first the whole double standards thing has to stop and the result justifies the means thing has to stop.

If you where a small boy/girl living in a country and your family had not done any thing and one day a Bomber from another country bombs your house killing your whole family, are you going to grow up and live a normal life, or are you going to become a terrorist to get revenge for your family, or to try and stop it from happening again.

Adib

Terrorism - acts of aggression against those who should not be harmed. Because governments no longer "declare war", the entire world is involved in and suffering from, terrorism. Whether the "terror" of a government declaring it is "fighing for" its citizens, the "terror" of multinational corporations with its paid guerillas and board room investment decisions, or the "terror" of trade embargos, it seems to be only the acts on a public televison and international new media scale that are offered, polarizing viewpoints. If I am attacked, certainly I want you to respond, but when I attack, what is my justification? If I subscribe to a religious dogma, then "god gave this land to me". The land I and my ancestors were born on has changed political boundaries many times. god gave this land to me. However, either god failed to delineate the boundaries and its exclusive entitlement to me and my family (some god!), or god had something else in mind. I have to think along those lines because I no longer understand what purpose 200+ years of occupation ending would create, except for another 200 of chaos. But I am attacked. The family, the culture, fights under the rules of the latest government, the latest culture that imposes its rules.

What do I want? I want business and religion to be recognized for what they are - self serving and perpetuating divisions. If the earth must be split in two so that each gets their half, I fully pity the fishes, who have no voice.

I have written a article about Islam and terrorism at A929432 which is called Fundamentalist Islam, a misnomer.

It deals with terrorism and Fundamentalism in Islam and you might find it of interest.
I don't really want to repeat my self again.

Anyway, I think what your saying is that buisness and religion are the causes of world war and voilence, I disagree but well I am religious and I am a Muslim.

I take it that you are a Socalist or communist, which is two of the same thing.

Plus I think that if someone is attacking you, or your family or your property then you have a right to defend it. It has nothing to do with religion or buisness.

adib

Lets kick this back up...


I'm dutch and until some elections a couple of years ago we were a tolerant nation recieving a lot of refugees from other countries. I was raised to be a very tolerant kind of guy. I was thought to respect other PEOPLES opinion and believes. Also there was a very important lesson: "when driving your bike, try to stay near the middle of the road, too far on either side and you will fall off" Therefore I disagree with fundamentalism in any form. In my humble opinion it is wrong to walk into a cinema with a bomb and just as wrong to retaliate by bulldozing houses down. I believe that it is very wrong to force your believes onto anybody, people should be free to choose whatever they want. I also believe it is wrong for world leaders to follow the philosophy "if your with me you're against me" for that will lead to more violence. I disargee with my democratically elected goverment on many subjects, such as health care, asylum policy and other things, but they were voted and until there are new elections I will have to put up with what they do.
About terrorism; the only way to fight it is to prevent it! I believe that fighting terrorism is in fact fighting the terrorists and terrorist organisations. They are the visible outcomes of something else, may that be hunger, discrimination or opression, religious differences. That is the real cause of terrorism. A terrorist wants attention for his cause (whatever it may be) If all people could live without hunger, democracy and the absence of discrimination there would be no need to fight, would there?

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you will join me and the world will live as one" John Lennon

'Victory to the IRA' John Lennon.

i beg your pardon?

Sorry about that, I couldn't resist it. John Lennon could be such a contradictory character (perhaps that's what makes him so interesting).

I think much of what you are saying is right. Dealing with the causes of terrorism such as poverty and oppression would prevent it. However, that would call for a radical change in the nature of the world in which we live. This will not happen through voting once every four years. In Britain, America and most of europe, we have been voting once every four years for a long time and little has changed. In fact, the world is now a much more dangerous place than ever before. Once in power, any government acts in the interests of its own country and economy.

I would also like to question your idea of democracy. Democracy is not simply a case of 'Put Up and shut up'. In a democracy we also have the right to protest, organise and strike if we don't like what our so called leaders are doing. As is my democratic right, i refuse to sit back and be quiet until the next election while my governments foreign policy contributes to making the world a much more dangerous place. Tens of thousands of ordainary people marching through the streets, makes it much harder for our 'leaders' to implement unfair and unjust policies. That's democracy.

Jagged Jack

John Lennon said on several occasions 'Victory to the IRA'. Even once in song i believe. I think it was on the album with working class hero on it. The one with Yoko Ono wailing away in the background like a banshee! I'm not 100% certain of that but John Lennon did voice support for the IRA, which many regard as a terrorist organisation.

JJU

"I would also like to question your idea of democracy. Democracy is not simply a case of 'Put Up and shut up'. In a democracy we also have the right to protest, organise and strike if we don't like what our so called leaders are doing. As is my democratic right, i refuse to sit back and be quiet until the next election while my governments foreign policy contributes to making the world a much more dangerous place. Tens of thousands of ordainary people marching through the streets, makes it much harder for our 'leaders' to implement unfair and unjust policies. That's democracy."

Indeed that is...

and about the put up/shut up you credit me...I meant to say that even though I have to put up with it I still have the right to disagree!

You most certainly do and let me just say, i for one respect you the more for doing so. Nice talking to you.

JJ