h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I am reading through all of these posts and I am amazed at the range of interpretations of the same words.

I am a former Mormon, and I find it amusing to hear all of the old arguments. well mostly just the old sermons and testimonials. Actually just amused!

I grew up in Utah, raised a mormon, and I have chosen to excommunicate myself from the Mormon religion. Simply because there were too many logical questions that went unanswered, were evaded or just plain ignored.
I took the advice of the "bishop" and the "home teachers" and "the Elders" and from the "missionaries" that tried to bring me back into the fold. I took your advice and I prayed for the answer... I suppose since I didn't get an answer I was not praying hard enough or maybe the logical answer is that I was just a fool talking to myself...?

When I ask a simple question that deserves a simple logical answer... why is it standard procedure to bear your testimony to me... to preach to me... why can you not just answer the bl**dy questions?

I suppose the accepted belief is that if I hear your testimony, and that of every other person that I am asking the question of, enough times that I will just adopt the correct language to spout off when people ask me questions.
Am I supposed to give into to peer pressure because I can't find answers? again just adopting the correct language so as not to be made an outcast because I keep asking the same questions in the vain hope that someday I will get an answer and not just a rehearsed testimony from the lad down the street that is merely regurgitating what he has heard his entire life from all of his family, peers and his priesthood chums.

Point shift... try to keep up!
It is beyond my comprehension how the next most senior person in the church automatically becomes the "Prophet" when the most senior one kicks off! Is this not the practice of a business and not that of a religion... it was my understanding... (Don't worry I developed this Idea on my own... none of your missionaries dropped the ball) it was my understanding... the prophet was chosen by God and not by seniority.
How convenient that the mormons have all of these prophets all lined up in the correct order...
Yet all of the lambs as they are so often (and aptly) referred to swallow this without question.

My issues are with many aspects too numerous to mention in this forum.
So I will spare you the entire rant.

I have these issues with religion in general so don't get your hopes up that I am converting to some other cult or religion.

This is most definitely not an invitation for all of the nutters out there to mount there soap boxes and "teach" me the error of my ways.
this is just the next logical step in my purging of the mormon cult from my bowels.
I now have my answers and ironically enough the answer came from years of questions and hours of contemplation.

I live by one simple phrase and one phrase alone...
It is not the often regurgitated "do unto others"
It is much simpler than that...

"It is not the things you do. It is WHY you do them!"
translated... don't do what is expected of you... do what is right!

I no longer have issues with God, because you have to believe in something before you can take issue...

I enjoy a good debate so please feel free to reply to this post. All I ask is that you confine your replies to this conversation string and do not send messages directly to me.

Also if you are just going to preach to me or damn my eternal soul to purgatory then don't expect a reply... because again there is that belief thing that complicates your argument and until it starts to get a whole lot warmer I am not concerned, nor do accept that you are doing your duty to inform me. Just take it as read that I am duly informed.

I know I am not alone... If you have ever questioned the teachings and procedures of the church, post your questions here. Maybe you will find that the "elder" down the lane had the same question!

Thanks for your time.

I joined the Church aged 26, having grown up without any relious indoctrination.

I moved on a journey first from being agnostic to athiest to becoming aware and awake to the spiritual conflict between good and eveil to finally accepting Jesus Christ as my Saviour and being baptised into the Church.

Along the way I experimented with ethics, morality, drugs etc, in some areas of my life I quite lived "on the edge".

What I learned was that as sure as night follows day, unhappiness follows sin - as in acting contrary to the commandments of God.

When I did learn about the Church it actually ANSWERED all of my questions - which is in stark contrast to your experience.

Prayer is a two-way thing it may not be that you were not praying hard enough, but that the answer was not heard (or liked).

Your conclusion is correct though, and any member of the Church would wholeheartedly agree "... don't do what is expected of you... do what is right!"



There is really only one specific question that you raised in your post, which to me is not really much of an issue. I understand that it is usual that the longest serving Apostle becomes the next President. To me that makes sense. He will by definition be the most experienced!

As far as I am aware that succession is what is usual, and has happened so far. I am not aware that that it is written into the "constitution", ie it is not an unbreakable doctrine written in tablets of stone. The next Prophet WILL be chosen by God. If He does not want the longest serving Apostle to be the next Prophet He will make it known when the time comes.

I had the privilidge of seeing Gordon B Hinkly last night address the members in the UK on his visit here. No doubt to me that he is a Prophet of God.

You have actually just proven part of my point as far answering with a testimony.
I accept that some people were not raised Mormon nor do they live in such an oppressive society as Utah.

I actually lived in the UK for 4 years and it was an enlightenment in itself.
People can actually converse without bearing or being subject to someone elses testimony. I learned that there are a myriad of subjects other than God, religion and what the church teaches.
I didn't have a lot to say to people at first as you can imagine.
I learned, and this may seem very odd to most people unless they grew up in Utah, I learned that you can still be a good and just person even if you don't go to church, pay tithing or constantly bear your testimony.

It was me getting away from Utah and searching for answers away from the oppression and rituals, that allowed me to find my answers.

I learned that I don't have to tell people what I think of God in order to be accepted. That my relationship or even my lack of relationship with God is my own and very private business.

What a refreshing change. I was able to find my own answers, which i have related above.

In response to my only making one point in order to discuss; I think you missed all the parts about testimonies and conditioning. Albeit I did only specifically mention the leadership as a discussion point.
It was my mistake because I did get carried away with the entire rant.

As far as your response to the leadership issue... The LDS hierarchy would conveniently never be given revelation that someone other than the most senior serving person would take control of the church. I can only attribute that to the fact that the divine revelations would not be divine at all but just a natural succession of power.

Do you honestly believe that the leader of the LDS Church would ever come out of his discussions with "God" and say "Yo Gordo, Sorry your not the next boss... god said it is going to be someone else" for the sake of argument... someone like you!
It would never happen... these men have agendas of their own. they are not going to give up their shot at leadership.
Trust me if they ever did I will be happy to reconsider my argument.

I just think it is ridiculous to even consider that the Mormons got it right and have actually put their leaders into power in the correct order as God has forseen or fortold or whatever... That is a bl**dy great feat! It must mean that they know God's divine plan...

Therefore if they do why could they not answer my simple questions?

scuse me - I only added my testimony after answering other points.

Clearly you are rebelling against what you see as conditioning and the withdrawal of your free agency. Yes there are "rituals" or ordinances, which have symbolic meaning, but I see nothing of oppression. That is your own personal experience, and not mine.

No I do not beleive that God would do anything so stupid as make me the Prophet, or make anyone the prophet whom he has not also given the experiences and teachings to prepare him, for that calling - these things are done in wisdom and order. Like I said, the usual succession makes sense because the most experienced and best qualified man becomes the Prophet.

How close ever were you to a bishop or a Stake President? None that I have ever come across have SOUGHT the calling or responsibility. Most have given their service, unpaid, and made great sacrifices. Our Ward recently changed Bishops, and those men who were possibilities for the calling were quaking in their shoes at the prospect.

Your view of the First Presidency and the Apostles appears very tainted and judgemental. I hear and see nothing that ever makes me even suspect that any of them are anything but humble men doing what they can to serve God in the Church. When did you last see General conference?

Your one specific simple question so far seems to have a straightforward answer.

Deuce! So what? You do what you do, and we will do what we do!! You clearly have no time for Mormonism and yet you spend time arguing the toss! What is it to you?
Get a life!

Dudeyone,

Do you really claim to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and show such disdain.

This is not the charity that Christ commanded us to show one for another.

Put the gospel in your heart and not just on your lips.

Dudyone,
I thank you for your input but I used this board as a way to vent some very "real frustration" and I found not, entirely, what I came here for but I have found a few places to start looking.

Yes my original input was very slanted and filled with very real anger. I claimed to have all of the answers (which, to me, should have been a true insight into my flawed logic) but I only found that I don't even really know the questions... but again thank you for your input and I will "do my thing" and you are welcome to do your thing, whatever it may be.

Ta,
Deuce

Fair enough!! That is all I ask.

Yes I am a member (to Reasearcher guy)and an RM and I offer no apology. Did Christ not take a whip to certain individuals. I shall say what I must and I shall square it with my faith!

Christ took a whip to individuals who desercrated His temple. It gives us no right to be rude and arrogant to people.

Usually RM's have a modicom of humility and learned of kindness, service and unconditional love.

Researcher 192341, I have been browsing through a few of these boards and I see you are a very busy person.

You are very knowledgable of your religion and I am truly glad that I encountered you before I encountered dudyone. I feel a little sorry for the people that had to endure a missionary visit from dudyone. I hope that they were able to see past his bitter antagonism.

I am bitter but I no longer profess to be a member. I am certain that does not excuse my past transgressions but at least I will not hide behind an indefensable position.

In a small way I envy your knowledge and faith. I am re-examining my belief structure and in time I will learn the questions. When I achieve that knowledge I sincerely hope you will still be posting here and that I will be able to call on you for some answers.

I do not envy your undertaking...

...And so Deuce is softned somewhat to the church!!!!

You last post is somewhat different to your earlier ones.

May I say, Elder Dudeyone was a kick Butt missionary. I was loved (surely you can see why) and I got results.

Don't judge too harshly!!! Self righteousness is not a pleasing quality!

Not so much softened to the church but more accepting of other beliefs.
That does not make me self-righteous... I think you should, however, look up the meaning of self-righteous. Then re-read your last post. Hmmmm! (maybe even include an investigation of the definition of blatant arrogance while you are at it!)

You actually said in an earlier post that you "shall say what I must" and you "shall square things with my faith" I think that is an excuse to say what you want... and when you square it with your faith don't be too disappointed that you are on the short end!

There is a fine line between ignorance and stupidity. Let us hope that you just didn't understand, shall we?

I am seeking that which I thought I had previously found...
You may think what you will dudyone, I really don't give a toss!

Ta,
Duece

Deuce,

Sorry, we are supposed to be reaching out and showing forth good examples.

Dudeyone,
D&C 4: 6
6 Remember faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, diligence.

I'm well aware that you don't give a .......!

It's probably a good job really!

Blatant arrogance is a privilige of living in a free country I'll have you know!

It's nice to know though isn't it that even in Mormonism we have such a wide spectrum of people. We have Researcher who is a nicey type person.

And we have me who is 'blatantly arrogant', and yet loved and respected so comprehensively by those around me.

We had the open house for our new chapel yesterday and i entertained the non members with an account of our conversation on this board. They loved it!!!

I now have another bit to add for the open house tonight. Deuce and Researcher you are becoming household names to the non members in this area and we even have people who are coming to church on Sunday as a result of our conversation.

So please insult me again!!! Go on! You know you want to! Researcher refer me to another scripture!

Anyway,isn't the parable of the good samaritan all about loving the unlovable? Hey I'm arrogant and unlovable!!! i'm lying by the wayside of spritual-cybernetic alley waiting for the GS to lick my arrogant wounds!

So get licking Deuce and researcher?

Dudeyone,

If you are so nice and loved by people you meet and know in the flesh, why do you play around with people and be rude to people here in cyberspace?

Clearly you have a lot of what is called "charisma", but even then the Glory is the Lord's not yours.

When there are serious enquiries made here you should treat them with respect.

..and yes we may know each other.

Just because we are brothers and must love one another, it does not mean we will necessarily like one another.

Yawn!

Blatant arrogance is never a privelidge. It is a sign of an uneducated person that honestly believes that he is better than the next person. I think there is a scripture for that but I won't claim to be able to quote it.

People get on the net and think that because we can't see them or we don't know who they are, that it is ok to be rude and that common courtesy does not apply.

I do remember a few things that were taught at sunday school and primary and that was that rudeness is never accepted and common courtesy is never abandoned.
Instead of making a complete *ss of yourself any further you should consider that I don't need to know who you are to know that what you are doing is the actions of a pathetic individual.

I am growing bored of Dudyone's self gratification and ego masturbation...

I can think of a few things that I would rather do than continue this conversation. I have already given this far too much time.

Amen!

He said MAs..., mast.. master.. I cannot even type it!!!! And you said AMEN!

What is the world coming to!!!

I never do it with my ego!

If how you show yourself here is what you really are like you will probably find that the people around you love you despite your attitude and not because of it. You are presumptious about having so much respect too. You will probably find that it is more tolerating you and humouring you. Arrogance distorts the self-image.

The reason I quote scriptue is because it is the word of God and scripture explains to us what we need to do to return to Heavenly Father.

Do you read the scriputre and liken them to yourself? or due you pay lip service to what you read and discard it?

Tomorrow's Sunday School lesson is on Alma 5 - Have a read:


27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently bhumble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

29 Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless.

30 And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a amock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions?

31 Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!


If what you post here is just all a laugh to you and a front to your real persona (as in: you really are good bloke in reality), I again ask why, when there are people here making serious enquiries, do you deride and dismiss them?

When you do your Home Teaching do you go to a former member or less active's house who is struggling with some doctrine or principle, or has been offended in some way, and say:
"So what? You do what you do, and we will do what we do!! You clearly have no time for Mormonism and yet you spend time arguing the toss! What is it to you? Get a life!"

No? Then why do it here?