h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

brother man, the quote is Martin Luther King, not Jesus. and the "die by the sword" quote -- try finding it --ANYWHERE! take your time. i spent about 2 hours, and came up with stuff that was close, but go ahead, find that exact quote-- i dare ya.

another thing, one of the beatitudes-- the meek shall inherit the earth. i dont think Jesus meant cockroaches, either. Matthew 5:44-46 read, heed or misdeed, my man: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?

Jesus was a heavy. matthew 38-39 makes it very clear where he departs from his Hebrew heritage, actually, from the world as it was in those days-- NO ONE preached Love. the heart of Christianity is the message of Love, of praying for those that wish you dead. NO WHERE will you find Jesus exhorting anyone to kill anyone else.

it always amazes me, how Jesus' words got so bent outta shape that no one lives by the original. He even died to prove what he meant. and he was only 1 Hebrew. 6 million of us had to die to prove that Hitler could not stop us from carrying our beliefs forward.

so you have heard it from a Hebrew-- this hatred for Muslims, for Arabs, for Islam, all this hate has to stop. read the King quote as many times as it takes to get it. so many people are so filled with hate, with a false sense of power and justice, with intolerance toward anything that isnt mcdonalds, isnt best buy, isnt chevrolet. america is not the only game in town. you want it that way? you want liberty and justice for all? well you cant set people free by killing them. simple as that. come on, butcher-- do you think hussein, at 72 years old, is capable of making a gurgle here? iraq is a country of 50% under 15 population. maybe they have been taught hate all their lives, maybe not-- i havent been there. but can you honestly believe all the crap coming out of the white house??? first it was iraq had nukes. then it was bio weapons, now it's down to missiles that can travel 20 miles over the imposed limit for missiles. what the f*ck! come on, it's all about OIL!!! it sure as hell aint about democracy for dead iraqi civilians.

if you do nothing else, read this: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8425/BONES.HTM#article

Hi everyone


Interesting discussion going on here.
To add my ...

You can't fight evil with evil.


It's difficult enough to have enough love for oursleves and our supposed loved ones, but to have love for our enemies...??
For me, Love is not something that is bestowed upon people whom we favour over others - it is something that has a power of it's own, and is unconditional. Unless we choose to *live inside* Love every day, then the 'love' we feel for others is just affection, no matter how strong.
For me, Love is a state of being, a committment to wanting the very best for everyone (and yes that includes ourselves ) at all times. Of course this is hard to do/feel/live, especially in these war-mongering times, but it is the gift that separates us from separateness.

I'm not a Christian (although I believe in the goodness of Jesus's utterings) and I really don't want to come over all 'happy clappy', but are we not all of the same species? Regardless of our colour, race, religion, gender, sexual preference, eye colour, shoe size, favourite colour etc etc, are we not all of the same 'family'??

Of course it is hard to have Love for those who would hurt us or our families. But unless we do, I am afraid that hatred and intolerance will escalate to the point of annhilation for *all* of us.

I've never understood how any wars can be fought in the name of any god. As far as I understand it, God (take your pick of deities folks ) is supposed to symbolise Love and forgiveness. I believe that we are all masters of our own destinies and therefore we are all the Creator (in some shape or form, no matter how small) - do we want to create a world full of hatred, suspicion and pain? Or do we want to create a world of forgiveness, trust and Love?
It's our choice.

you made my day, leopard. i cant watch war movies anymore without being reduced to tears at man's inhumanity to man. all the violence and intolerance... it doesnt even matter to me which side is dishing it out, which is eating-- the result is all the same.

there was one episode of "Kung Fu", where one man had his son's killer under his knee and was about to deliver the death blow, when Master Kane (david carradine) stopped him with a question: "when you blow out a candle, is there less light in the world, or more?"

i know the youth of america is in serious trouble. most high school children today would answer something like, "candles didnt kill the guy's son. i would kill the killer!" why? because our whole society today is in serious trouble. most of our children cant even SEE the spiritual message and if they do, they're inclined to reject the idea of Love and go for the jugular.

i subscribe to a long distance company (working assets long distance) that sends good, reliable "alternative news" information, as well as other liberal miscellany. their recent quote of the month was from Martin Luther King, Jr.:
"Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him."

thank you, leopard. God bless you and God bless everyone, including the Iraqi people.

Thank you YankMe


Thanks for the quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. I particularly liked
"Nonviolence means avoiding...........internal violence of spirit."


May all our gods go with us.

Ok, then, what do you propose we do with the folks who planned the 9/11 attacks. Should we get them into a big group hug?

Sorry, but I'll pull the trigger myself. This peace-loving attitude is great, but when people are TRYING TO KILL YOU it doesn't work.

There's a real world out there with real enemies. I'd like to use real weapons to defend myself. Words just won't work against mustard gas.

Ok Butcher, I take your point, no really I do.

The way that I see it is that the terrible event of 9/11 was (partly at least) due to the fact that the government of the USA had brought the situation to the point where the only way that the terrorists could make their point was through, yep you guessed it, terror. In fact their point wouldn't have had to have been made if the American government had not been at least in part responsible for oppressing various peoples and supporting hateful regimes over the years for whatever reason.
I don't want to get into a slanging match about the ethics and policies of the American government, but surely there must be some accountability?

September the 11th was a terrible tragedy, but unfortunately inevitable.

If you preach mindless capitalism at the expense of human life then it's gonna come back and bite ya on the a*s. Unfortunately, it came back and bit thousands of innocent people on the a*s.
Is dropping bombs on Irag going to bring back all those thousands of lives?


I really don't want to sound all 'happy clappy', get my guitar out and start singing Kum Bye Ah, but hatred breeds hatred. If you p*ss someone off, then they're gonna want to p*ss you or someone else off.

I agree that if someone is trying to hurt you or your family, then trying to engage them in a rousing chorus of "Oh come all ye faithful" is not going to be the immediate choice. Naturally.
But self-defence is different than aggression. It isn't self defence to drop bombs on someone or go round to their house and break their legs with a baseball bat.

Seems to me that there is so much violence in the USA because of the gun culture. Of course there will always be violence in the world with or without firearms, but guns just make it so easy don't they?? One doesn't have to get up close and personal with the maiming, hey you can do it from a distance! So much easier! So convenient!

I don't have any answers, hey if I did I'd probably be the Dalai Lama or Buddha or something, I'm just giving my opinion. But it seems to me that we need to break the cycle of hatred and violence *somewhere*, and I propose to try in my own life. What you decide to do with yours, is your decision.

We can't create peace in the whole world, but we *can* work at bringing peace in our own hearts and lives.

I read you reply to Butucher.
The treat of war worries us all the thought of inicent lives of all ages,wars are caused by polititains(sorry about my spelling)but they are not the ones who go out to ward and they are safe as they have bunkers.So it's Im'm alright Jack for them.
As long as we are talking war has to be the last resort when everything fails and I hope and pray it does not happen no-one really wins there are too many lives lost in battle and lives of those left behind to try and rebuild of those who loose loved ones their lives will neva be the same broken hearts and sorrow is what it just brings.
I beleive in PEACE and not WAR there has to be a better way!!!
Mags

"two books i am constantly giving away-- the Road and Codependent No More, How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Taking Care of Yourself, Melody Beattie"

You don't happen to have read "Bridget Jones - The Edge of Reason", do you?

We all need love to get through life. The hardest task is not to love others, but to love ourselves. Be comfortable with who we are, like ourselves, like to be alone with our thoughts, have a sense of wholeness and joy when we are alone with our spirit. Most people (myself included) don't know how to do this. We always seek out our reflection in other people's eyes, and sometimes it comes back distorted and it makes us think that we're not worthy.

I'm trying to get over this. Love myself more, love other people more. Just love. It's not as easy as it sounds. But I'm trying.

Oh MY GOD!!

You REALLY believe the U.S. is responsible for the fact that Arab governments the WORLD OVER teach their children from the time they're babies that it's OUR fault their countries are poor?

Arab nations are so corrupt and lacking in human decency it's sick. Literacy rates hover around 10 percent in many of those nations, and there's rampant unemployment. So a bunch of 20-something arabs are told by their lying, corrupt government that it's our fault, and so they hate us. THAT's the reason behind 9/11.

I think you really need to learn something about the culture in Arab nations, about what can happen to those countries when men like Komal Ataturk take over and reform them, what happens when the Saudis sell oil, preach Islam in their country, then come to the US as tourists and enjoy TV, booze, women (all things they claim to be against when they're home).

Read about Ataturk, what he did to improve Turkey. He took his country into the 20th century, and Turkey is NOT a haven for terrorists. Turkey is a first-world nation.

ARAB nations are responsible for not educating their people. ARAB leaders are to blame for the culture of hatred they have produced. US and Israeli governments are free, democratic countries and that scares the hell out of men like prince Saud and Saddam. Turkey, on the other hand, sees that freedom is good, education is good, and as a result, they aren't hateful.

Read about it. Learn about it. Then tell me if you still think the USA is responsible for the way most arab governments abuse their people.

I don't hate Arabs. I know many Arabs to be fine people. Their governments, unfortunately, are largely evil.

Do you feel better for that?

Thanks for the reply, but I refer you to post 26:
"I don't want to get into a slanging match about the ethics and policies of the American government..."

I appreciate your attempt at trying to educate me.

"I don't hate Arabs. I know many Arabs to be fine people. Their governments, unfortunately, are largely evil." - And ours aren't??

Oh by the way, I've lived and worked in more than one 'Arab nation', so I feel quite able to form my own opinions, thank you.

No, I don't feel better, but thanks anyway.

Apparently you believed the lies in the countries you worked in. If you are still unable to see the truth, I give up.

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to war.

Do I see a flame war starting? Please... don't. This IS the love thread, after all.

Love is a two-way thing.

Now apologise to each other for being rude before I kick both your ar*es

(Only joking, of course, but I am distressed when I see people arguing.)

I DO apologize for getting emotional, but I feel very strongly that blaming America for 9/11 is inappropriate, inaccurate, and inflammatory.

If you should love your enemy, when is it appropriate to use force?

I didn't believe lies of any kind Butcher - my eyes were (and still are)very much open I can assure you. Of course they have their problems, but so does every other nation.

There are plenty of threads here on h2g2 about the war, I really don't want to get into it here. But I will give you this link to read and ponder over:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,911583,00.html

I very much hope that a peaceful resolution is found.


Oh and Greta, I think that if you re-read my last post you'll find that I wasn't being rude, I was stating my opinion. In a very non-rude way.

That is a very good article.

I don't disagree that Bush, and many Americans like me, would very much like to see American principles and democratic states flourish in the Arab world.

In short, I think most Arabs (especially Arab women), if they were educated and literate, as the Turks are, would be happier if they had jobs and economic prosperity.

Why is that such a bad thing?

Why is it wrong for the US to liberate a state from a torturer, murdered, and opressor of the people?

Why is it bad for people to be able to determine their leadership, make responsible decisions regarding their country's resources, and in the process become a US ally?

I'd genuinely like to hear answers, if anyone is interested in giving me his or her opinion.

*Of course* it's not a bad thing for women to have equality - I am one after all, and I have seen what it's like for women in some Arab countries.

But the war with Iraq isn't about equality is it?
It's about Oil.
It's about Power.

It saddens me that people believe in Bush and his war-mongering ways.

I also think it ironic that America so badly wanted their independence and tried so desperatlely to get away from 'The Empire' of Great Britain, and they now want to make all the world American. So that's OK then?

We'd have cheaper oil if we weren't going to war right now. I'm pretty sure at least one of Bush's advisors have told him that.

Power is what the UN wants, without doing what it needs. You can't blame the US for wanting power, when it is only achieving goals the UN has set. And just remember that the UN inspectors got kicked out of Iraq when US military forces weren't there to threaten to kick Saddam's butt.

Inspections don't work. The threat of military aggression works. And now that the US and British (and Australian) military are threatening, the inspectors are taking the credit. Right. It's all Mr. Blix and his brave group of wise and noble inspectors. That's why the peaceful process made so much progress over the past 12 years when there was no military action.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to support the idea of keeping 200,000 young U.S. men and women out in the gulf babysitting Iraq and sitting on their hands while Blix runs an apologist campaign for Iraqi noncompliance for the next 3 years.

The US wants no more power than the UN. We just back our words with action, and as a result we get what we want. I'm not going to apologize for that.

The war is not about oil. But you're right, it IS about power. It's about the power to change the world, with a vision of democracy in the middle east, peaceful relations with Arab nations, and rebuilding the world in a way that makes it safer, freer, and more prosperous.

Check out http://www.unisevil.com.

First off, I'd like to thank you Butcher for pushing my buttons.
It has shown me that there's still a long way for me to go to develop the kind of perfect acceptance and Love that I would so dearly love to see much more of in the world.

You have reminded me that Peace must start in my own heart, especially when confronted with an opposing viewpoint.


*** *** ***

What would everyone on this thread suggest is an ethical alternative to this War?
How can we help to help dispel the Hatred and Fear that has led the world to this situation?
How can we free ourselves from the need to seek Power and control over other people's lives/freedoms/minds?

I'll want your essays on my desk by tomorrow afternoon.

hmmm, been away too long.
POINT 1- Saddam Hussein is NOT osama bin laden.
POINT 2- Saddam Hussein is NOT Iraq.
(Iraq is a country of 23 million PEOPLE. they are not animals, nor do they ALL hate America. Iraq is NOT one person, yet bush and his crew use the terms 'iraq' and 'saddam' INTERCHANGEABLY! that, my friends, is INSANE)

POINT 3- SADDAM AINT ATTACKIN' NOBODY, NOWHERE, NO MORE, NO HOW, NO WAY. after bush has caused all this ruckus, the first missile Hussein lobs over the fence will come back a million times more, and he damn well knows it now, dont he?

the US Constitution permits the president to take military steps to defend our country from attack. hussein did not attack us, nor is he a clear and present danger. not him, not his rusted out obsolete tanks, not his crummy undertrained armies, some of which last week tried to surrender to some british soldiers who were firing their rifles for target practice! read more about what kind of slaughter this one-sided "war" will be, written by a retired service man.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-2-2003_pg3_2

9/11 was an attack, but that morning, i heard newscasters say there was no one country to attack, no one place to throw a few thousand bombs, so we could feel better about what happened in our back yard. i lived in NYC for 50 years. i saw the world from the observation deck of Tower 2. my son cried to me that he would never be able to bring HIS son up there to see the wonder of what Man had achieved.

our attackers were 19 brain-washed Islamic fundamentalist maniacs, trained by a non-organization of "cells" that are scattered around the world, probably in all the countries that US corporate power has raped and pillaged, in the name of spreading not democracy, but capitalism.

butcher, we both love and are loyal to America; we both support our military now, after 9/11, as do all Americans. but we got the wrong man at the wheel, sending our military to fight the wrong war against the wrong entity for the wrong reasons. he has NOT gone after terrorist cells-- hell, he isnt even LOOKING for bin laden anymore!

american corporate power is now multinational, with americans pulling the larger strings. i love my country, i love what freedom we still have left (http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1769&dept_id=74969&newsid=7274896&PAG=461&rfi=9), but we as a people are not going to stay innocent anymore. the truth will out. all of it. naked and ugly as it may be, i still love my country. but i will not turn the other way while "peace-loving" America drops 3,000 cruise missiles that will turn baghdad into a fireball so huge that millions will die as the oxygen in their lungs catches fire.

from http://www.mediamonitors.net/josephclifford2.html
We supported Bin Laden and the Taliban for years and viewed them as freedom fighters against the Russians.

As late as 1998, the US was paying the salary of every single Taliban official in Afghanistan.

There is more oil and gas in the Caspian Sea area than in Saudi Arabia, but you need a pipeline through Afghanistan to get the oil out.

UNOCAL, a giant American Oil conglomerate, wanted to build a 1000 mile long pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to the Arabian Sea.

UNOCAL spent $10 billion on geological surveys for pipeline construction and very nicely courted the Taliban for their support in allowing the construction to begin.

All of the leading Taliban officials were in Texas negotiating with UNOCAL in 1998.

1998-1999 the Taliban changed its mind and threw UNOCAL out of the country and awarded the pipeline project to a company from Argentina.

John Maresca VP of UNOCAL testified before Congress and said no pipeline until the Taliban was gone and a more friendly government was established.

1999-2000 The Taliban became the most evil people in the world.

Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July, 2001, that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.

9/11/01 WTC disaster.

Bush goes to war against Afghanistan even though none of the hijackers came from Afghanistan.

We have a new government in Afghanistan, with "elected" Afghan-American President Hamid Karzai, who formerly worked for UNOCAL.

Bush appoints a special envoy, Zalmay Khalilzad (formerly chief consultant to UNOCAL), to represent the US to deal with that new government.

The Bush family acquired their wealth through oil.

Bush's Secretary of Interior was the President of an oil company before going to Washington.

George Bush Sr. now works with the "Carlysle Group" specializing in huge oil investments around the world.

Condoleezza Rice worked for Chevron before going to Washington. Chevron named one of its newest "supertankers" after Condoleezza.

Dick Cheney worked for the giant oil conglomerate Haliburton before becoming VP. Haliburton gave Cheney $34 million dollars as a farewell gift when he left.

Haliburton is in the pipeline construction business.

There is $6 trillion dollars worth of oil in the Caspian Sea area.

The US government quietly announces on Jan 31, 2002 that we will support the construction of the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline.

President Musharref (Pakistan), and President Hamid Karzai, (Afghanistan - Unocal) announce agreement to build proposed gas pipeline from Central Asia to Pakistan via Afghanistan. (Irish Times 02/10/02)

"There are heavy connections between the Bush Administration and US oil corporations. The interests of those oil giants are the cornerstone of this Administration's policy. Control of Iraqi oil fields would be worth incalculable profits for the very corporations whose former executives permeate the ranks of the Bush Administration. Oil is the Bush family business -- politics is the shield that protects it. Who donates to keep Republicans in power???
"In addition to the oil, the business of militarism itself promises a mountain of gold for those who promote this act of military aggression. At the center of all spending for the administration's "war on terrorism" is the Carlyle Group. Contracts for the construction of military aircraft, artillery, vaccines for small pox, transportation infrastructure - everything a war on terrorism needs - are awarded to companies connected to the Carlyle Group.
"Who is the Carlyle group? Essentially they are defense industry investment brokers. The management team includes none other than former US President George Bush Sr., James Baker and Frank Carlucci to name a few. If you want to invest your millions in the defense industry, the smart money goes to the Carlyle Group.
"In fact, that is precisely what the family of Osama bin Laden did. They were Carlyle clients in good standing at the time of the attacks, having invested two million dollars through Carlyle in the US defense industry. After the attacks, Carlyle severed relations with the bin Ladens, but not before the family of the worlds most notorious killer pocketed a tidy profit from their dealings. It should be noted that the bin Laden family investment was well timed to capitalize on the wave of US defense spending that would be generated by Oasma's attacks. Carlyle stood ready to assist them. I wonder how FOX News missed that."
from (http://www.impeachpresidentbush.com)
**********************************************
US Senator Robert Byrd (D - West VA)
Senate Floor Speech
Wednesday, February 12, 2003
(first few statements only)
To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world.

This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11.
******************************************
read about the plan of US world domination known as PNAC,
Project for the New American Century (http://newamericancentury.org/index.html)

if you think the Bush Dynasty is a principled lot, read this:
(http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html
Prescott Bush got into a little bit of trouble back in the 1940s. While American soldiers were fighting the Nazis in WWII, a few of the companies Prescott managed were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act because they were selling fuel to and laundering money for Hitler's Nazis.

GW's Uncle Prescott, Jr. - during the embargo on China, his company was the only US firm allowed to do business there, exporting communications satellites. Now he's the president of the USA-China Chamber of Commerce, which might be one reason China isn't part of the Axis of Evil. He also has ties to Manuel Noriega...

if you still dont "get it", read some morehttp://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html)

So I guess we'll have to tame our discussions due to the h2g2 policy on the War.
A639056

Thank you for your last post YankMe, very informative.


Sending thoughts of and Peace throughout the World.