A Conversation for The Merovingian Dynasty

the meroving....

Post 21

Corvus

Sounds likely to me, I'm not too well versed in the history after AD150 yet and may be jumping to conclusions too fast. However the myths about long hair can be found among the rastafari, in the myths of samson and several other places. I for one suppose that long hair works as a sort of cosmic antennae letting the wearer tune in to cosmic energies, wisdom and powers. (that's why skinheads understand nothing about reason, society and courtesy. They simply cant pick up the right vibes...)


the meroving....

Post 22

Researcher 93445

That also explains why we hippie types are such outstanding human beings.


the meroving....

Post 23

Corvus

Finally someone seems to understand me....i'm so happy....thanks ffmike...


the meroving....

Post 24

Researcher 107081

Yeah, OK, they claim descent from Noah, but that comes WITH Jesus (Matthew, Chapter 1) doesn't it?


the meroving....

Post 25

Mustapha

I think you mean Luke 3 (verse 36 in particular).

Both of Jesus' "genealogies" differ wildly, so I'm guessing that his biographers were doing exactly the same thing as the Merovingians.

The points being:

1) Really, if he's the Son of God, surely that's the only lineage that matters.

2) The only ones who would care about his lineage would be the Hebrews, on the lookout for their real Messiah, one descended from the line of David.

As any good genealogist will tell you, if you go back far enough, you can find yourself related to anybody ie I once heard it said that half the present population of Europe can claim descent from Emperor Nero. This doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be a stampede for the long vacant Imperial throne.


the meroving....

Post 26

Dazinho

I'm new to the whole h2g2 phenomena, and this is pretty much my first real attempt at anything other than reading, so if I'm treading on anyones toes with this or breaching some protocol of etiquette that I have yet to discover, I can only apologise!

I would like to say a few words on the subject of Adam, if I may. I am quite deeply religious without being a nut or bound by dogma. I explore religious history because I want to get to the root of it all, like the mechanic searching for the noise in your engine (when you know full well he's going to tell you your big end's gone and it'll cost the earth!) The story is not quick in the telling, so please bear with me and I shall be as quick as clarity allows.

The roots of the legend of Adam lie principally in two places; The early books of the Old Testament, and the alternative creation story such as the one +known to the Babylonians and Assyrians as the Enuma elish. The Enuma elish is thought to have been composed around 3500BC, and copies from the first millennium BC are still extant today. The first of these tablets were excavated by Sir Austen Henry Layard and were from the library of King Ashur-banipal at Nineveh.

The Enuma elish tells a reasonably similar story to Genesis, of how the earth was created by a certain deity through six clay tablets, with the seventh devoted to celebration and praise of the new creations.

The parallels between the Old Testament and the Enuma elish are numerous; but where the Bible has been doctored to match the needs of the Church, the older documents suffered no such blatant censorship and are concerened with telling a story.

So for example; in Genesis 1:7 (and more fully in Psalm 74, verses 13 & 14) the story is told that God parted the waters, and Psalm 74 goes further to say how God broke the heads of the dragons in the water. The Enuma elish goes further and explains that this was the God Marduk - who was named as being responsible for all the clever stuff with the clay tablets - who has to overcome the salt waters of Tiamat, portrayed as the great Dragon Queen.

These legends, and the basis for the Enuma elish, were handed down to these peoples from the Sumerians, who are truly the most mysterious people to walk this planet. We know nothing of where they came from, or their lineage, where they gained their technical know-how, or their language, which is unlike any language from any time period or any race, living or dead. Luckily for us, we have found the equivalent of their Rosetta Stone, which means we have been able to decode literally tens of thousands of clay tablets they have left behind. And because these tablets were created by inscribing a negative image into a cylinder and rolling it over wet clay, there are many copies of the same document, and forgeries are very easy to spot! It is no exaggeration to say that we probably know more about the Sumerians from first hand accounts than any other ancient race (so how come my twelve year old daughter has never heard about them at school, but she "knows for a fact" that the pyramids were the tombs of the pharoahs? Hmmm!)

Genesis 5:2 says that when God created man he called THEM Adam; then took one and called her Eve. There is no conclusion to draw from this other than to presume Adam is a plural term. Genesis says God created adam from the dust. The word for earth - Adamah.

The Sumerian creation records are over a thousand years older than the Enuma elish, and they tell of how the 'Lady of Life', the Goddess Nin-Khursag, was wont to make little clay models, and that one of these was mixed with the blood of Kingu, son of Tiamat, who had been executed for rebellion. The Enuma elish calls the first man lullu - literally, one who is mixed.

Nin-khursag continued her work with the clay models and to cut a long story short is eventually charged with populating the earth. She created fourteen new humans - seven of each, by implanting into a normal human ova a cultured embryo created from her pinch of clay mixed with the blood of the Gods. Therefore, these fourteen new people were born naturally as humans are now.

This repopulation experiment was a success as far as it went. But it was decreed the a line of earth-bound rulers was required to rule these new peoples. Nin-khursag, together with her husband and half brother Enki, the 'Lord Of Earth and Waters', concocted a new plan. Enki fertilised a mortal woman, and the embryo was placed into Nin-khursag, so that the foetus is fed with Annunaki (The race of Gods) blood. Nin-khursag carries the child to full term, and upon birth the child is designated the Adama, which translates literally as 'earthling'. He is given the name Adapa and Enki bestows upon him the world's first priesthood. Enki also gives him extraordinary powers of control, and describes him as being of the 'Royal Seed'. And so the importance of Adapa - Adam - lies not as much in him being the first man, but in being the first in the priest-king bloodline.

The implications of this last statement are clear. Adam - Adapa - is therefore the first of the line that, we are led to believe, might eventually encompass King Soloman, Jesus and his children, and the Merovingians. It depends on which version of events you read, and more importantly believe. Is this the bloodline that the Priory of Sion has supported through the centuries, and from this line will the eventual King of All Europe come? All this and more has been postulated. I myself make no such claim.

But this, in a nutshell, is the ancient legend of Adam, translated from the oldest documents to the best of current ability, without the need to subvert and control the population who would be reading it (for an explanation of these comments I plan to do an entry on Constantine's Council of Nicea).

There are a number of footnotes to this story which are mostly to do with mis-translated words in the bible which can be clarified by use of these older documents. The mis-translations come in the change from Hebrew to Greek, and mostly occurred when there was not an exact greek translation for a Hebrew concept. This, coupled with the more colourful and joyous outlook on life that the Greeks enjoyed (when compared to the more sober Jews), led them to treat some of the expressed biblical ideas differently and use a word that we now find misleading. But again, assuming I don't start receiving emailed death threats from religious fundamentalists, I may well expound in a further entry.

Although I can spout this story off the top of my head for the greater part, I have referred a great deal to published works for names, dates etc. during these paragraphs. So if I have whetted anyones appetite for further information on these 'legends' and stories of the Sumerians, I can say without reservation that they should refer to a book called 'Genesis Of The Grail Kings' by Laurence Gardner. I am not promoting his book for any financial gain, and I am not linked to him in any way (other than having slack-jawed admiration for the apparent depth of his research!)

All that remains is to thank the few of you have have read this far for your patience and understanding!


the meroving....

Post 27

Researcher 93445

No toes treaded here!

Seriously, that's a nice little essay. I'd suggest you turn it into a Guide Entry and submit it, rather than letting it just be tucked away in a forum thread.


the meroving....

Post 28

Mustapha

I agree. Let us know when you're done, CD4, and I'll stick a link to it at the h2g2 Historical Society, here:

http://www.h2g2.com/A240058

I like reading studies of myths & legends, and I like to think there's a seed of truth in every legend, or a mask hiding something bigger.


the meroving....

Post 29

Dazinho

Thanks, you two! I have submitted this as a guide entry - it's A246557, The Legend Of The First Man - Adam. As written above, I've also scribbled out an explanation of some of my comments above in another entry: A246610, The Council Of Nicea.

You know, it occurs to me that if there's any truth in these legends of the Annunaki - Enki and Nin-khursag, Gods who walk the Earth and work with the people, and the Nephilim, that the Bible mistranslates as Giants, then maybe we have a source for the technology that built the pyramids, that drew the lines at Nazca, and that plotted the Piri Reis map. I'll check that there's no such forum going on, and start one of on the subject of where the Ancients got their technology. I'll compose a few notes to get us started over the weekend and post it as soon as it's ready.

Thanks for your support, ffmike and Mustapha. If there's anything in particular you'd like for the society, let me know.


the meroving....

Post 30

Bran the Explorer

This continues to be an excellent discussion!

A question about the Roman name for northern Gaul - "Gallia Comata". I had interpreted this as "hairy Gaul", and thus a reference to moustaches rather than to long hair. Moustaches were the height of barbarity for a Roman. Any comments from the classicists in this discussion?


the meroving....

Post 31

Wolfman, Zaphodista :X (soon to be Zarquon again, or maybe not)

Hi, This Historical Society is a really neat idea. I'm only 18 and so I haven't had as much time as most of you to read up on history, but I am very interested in it, and in fact, I am seriously considering a career as a historian. I am interested in all history, but especially the Roman Era, the first millenium A.D., and the first half of the 20th century. This is a very interesting conversation, and I actually happen to have just recently read the Epic of Gilgamesh in Lit class, which seems to be the same story you are talking about. I don't know about Adam, but Utnapishtam the Faraway does indeed seem to be the Sumerian version of Noah. The similarities are uncanny. As for the Merovinginian Dynasty, it was a very good article, but I was hoping you would elaborate on the Mayors. Pippin and his desendents were much more competant rulers than the figurehead kings who spent all their time combing their not-so-powerful-afterall long hair and living in the lap of luxury while the mayors had the real power. One of them, (I can't remember who) even succeeded in making the office hereditary, and in doing so, made their power complete. I suppose you could make the argument that when the mayors started ruling it ceased to be the Merovinginian dynasty, but that's rather arbitrary. (Then again, so is most ancient/medieval history.) Still, an excellent article, and a the hisorical society is a great place to cultivate historical discussion. Keep up the good work!


the meroving....

Post 32

Mustapha

Wow, praise from the Great Zarquon! Thank you!

You're right, the Mayors probably were quite competent rulers. Mind you, they had being doing it for a number of years before they took final control. The Mayors were the Prime Ministers of their day, tending to the actual physical business of administrating the dominion, while the kings... did whatever they did. One real power the Merovingians would have had over their Mayors - the power to off them if got too uppity. That the Merovingians lasted as long as they did, while exercising only nominal power is quite astonishing, and is a testament to one very real power - the support of the masses.

And you're also right in saying that it wasn't completely the end of the Merovingian Dynasty, when Pepin/Pippin took over, but it was the end of their supremacy. At the time, the two major Merovingian provinces of Austrasia and Neustria still retained Merovingian rule and branches of the family could be found all about the place, but Childeric III was the last King of ALL Franks. But by the next generation, Merovingian rule was ended in both Austrasia and Neustria, and Pepin's son Charles Martel (who had been made Mayor of the Austrasian Palace) was made King of all Franks, thus founding the Carolingian Dynasty.


the meroving....

Post 33

Bran the Explorer

Some further thoughts on the end of the Merovingians (from an essay I wrote on the subject a couple of years ago) ....

That the Merovingians managed to endure till 751 does suggest that they were still necessary in some way. Indeed, Pippin II’s son Charles Martel (the first Carolus) elevated Chlothar IV in Austrasia in 718 in response to Chilperic II being elevated in Neustria by the now independent Mayor Ragamfred. Furthermore, when Chlothar died in 719, Charles negotiated for the return of Chilperic II from Aquitaine, where the latter had fled. In 743, Charles’ sons Pippin III and Carloman I, elevated Childeric III, after an interregnum of six years. The Merovingians still provided legitimacy: they were the ancient dynasty under which the Franks and their church had grown up. They could have endured indefinitely, and there is no indication that the Carolingians (as they might now be called) had the kingship as their ultimate goal. The Continuator of the Chronicle of Fredegar, for example, states of Theuderic IV (721-737) that “(he) still reigns over us and looks forward to years of life”.

The eventual deposition of Childeric III, therefore, could be said to have occurred quite suddenly. In 750, Pippin III - now the sole Mayor - sent two emissaries to Rome to ask Pope Zacharias: how should a ruler enjoying no power rightly continue to bear the title king? Such a call to Rome illuminates a strategic side to Pippin’s thinking; his choice of emissaries reveals much regarding his influences and motivations. One emissary was an Englishman called Burghard. Englishmen, such as St. Boniface, had been conducting missionary work with the support of Charles Martel, and there is no indication that Pippin ever withdrew this support. English practice and sympathy would have regarded a rex sine potestate, “a king without power”, as an anathema, and the spread of such views might have been sponsored by people such as Boniface. It would certainly have been expedient for Boniface to support any Carolingian move in that direction; he needed their assistance for his missionary work. The other emissary was a Frank named Fulrad, Abbot of the Merovingian monastery of St. Denis. Both Pippin III and Carloman I had been educated at St Denis, and Fulrad was one of Pippin’s closest advisers. The choice of Fulrad reflects Pippin’s need to gain the support of the Merovingian church for his intended action. The Merovingians themselves had earned the gratitude of the Catholic church in the time of Clovis I, and both church and crown enjoyed a special relationship. The church had on the whole benefited from Merovingian patronage, and, being a conservative institution, would not easily have abandoned their old benefactors. Without the approval of the church, no amount of secular support would have won Pippin the throne. The visible support of the St. Denis community, represented by Fulrad, would have been decisive in swaying the loyalties of the church from the Merovingians to the Carolingians.

Pippin’s request would have also been in keeping with Papal and scriptural tradition: kings should be seen to rule, as Old Testament kings had ruled. In addition, Pippin’s envoy had caught the Pope at a critical time. The Lombards were threatening Rome from the north, and the Papacy had need of a protector. The Franks, under the Carolingians, were the most secure and powerful Christian state at the time; it was in the interests of Pope Zacharias, and his successor Stephen II, that the Carolingians be strengthened in their power by being given the kingship. The Merovingians could no longer provide what was needed for the church. Thus, according to the Continuator of the Chronicle of Fredegar, Papal sanction was given and Pippin, with the consent of all the Franks, was “consecrated by the bishops and received the homage of the great men”. Childeric III and his son were tonsured and sent off to a monastery. Wallace-Hadrill argues that the coronation ritual possibly compensated not so much for the lack of royal blood, but for the loss of face for breaking an oath of fidelity. It eased the consciences of both the Carolingians and the Frankish people. With this new rite, they could uphold the institution of kingship without the “blood of Meroveus”. Therefore, the Merovingian dynasty could now be replaced.

Wallace-Hadrill has variously referred to the deposition of Childeric III as a coup d’etat, a violent removal, and a dismissal. Indeed, the end was unpredicted and, in retrospect, multifarious in its genesis. The Merovingian kings had lost their power through a diminishment in their ability to reward their followers; a consequent need to rely on their increasingly powerful magnates, particularly during civil war, and a succession of minority kingships during a crucial period. The Mayors of the Palace came to rule in their stead. But the Merovingians did not simply fade away; they were removed after a final desertion by the church, engineered by the Carolingian Pippin III. Perhaps the best summation was made by Pope Gregory VII. Looking back on the actions of Zacharias, he observed that Childeric III had not been removed for any moral defects. Rather he - and by extension the Merovingian line - was deposed quod non erat utilis, “because he was not useful”.


the meroving....

Post 34

Mustapha

Wowee! It never fails to amaze me the level of academia displayed in this forum. It's almost as astonishing as the continued interest in it.

Bran, does "The Long-Haired Kings" have a genealogy for Meroveus? I've found a family tree on the web for him, purporting to go back to 39 BC, and until I can find confirmation to the contrary, I consider it highly dubious.


the meroving....

Post 35

Bran the Explorer

Hi Mustapha

I'll have to look up the 'Long-Haired Kings' in the library next time I am there to check. Have you seen this one by the way - Wood, I. The Merovingian Kingdoms 450-751, London: Longman Group UK, 1994. Quite good, and a bit more up to date than Wallace-Hadrill's 'Lomg-Haired Kings'.

I suspect that the genealogy would be suspicious in any regard, as they had principally political and propagandist functions, and thus open to a bit of tweaking.

Cheers
Bran.


the meroving....

Post 36

Mustapha

I thought as much.

But still, it is an intriguing notion nonetheless.

Here's the link should anyone be interested:

http://www.aldstar.com/forum/origins/gens/D0014/I2180.html


the meroving....

Post 37

Bran the Explorer

For anyone interested, I have just added a new entry on the end of the Merovingians (might not be processed yet), and some new hardcore medeival history links on my page (might also not quite be up yet).

The new entry is at The End of the Merovingian Dynasty

Cheers
Bran


the meroving....

Post 38

Bran the Explorer

Well ... that clearly did not work. Let's try:

http://www.h2g2.com/A251542


the meroving....

Post 39

Mustapha

Excellent stuff, Bran! It neatly bridges between the two dynasties. But perhaps an alternate title might be "From Merovingians to Carolingians" or something along that line.


the meroving....

Post 40

Bran the Explorer

Good suggestion ... I have changed it to something similar, and have added a bibliography. Worth adding to the Historical Society, do you think?
Cheers
Bran.


Key: Complain about this post