A Conversation for Cyborgs in Science Fiction
Errata and omissions
Hoovooloo Started conversation Sep 5, 2003
The Cybermen were 1966, not 1967 - reference: http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sps/serials/dd.html
Of Vader, Obi-wan actually says "He's more machine THAN man", not "THAT man".
"Vader is ruthless and one of the themes is that he has no emotions,"
I'd disagree with this strongly... but it would be a geek conversation, so I'll let it go.
If you're going to quote one of the greatest and certainly most influential sf films of all time, at least quote accurately.
"The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly Roy."
This quote can also be heard as a sample in Hoodlum Priest's "Tyrell", from the CD "Hearts of Darkness".
It's probably worth making it clearer that a terminator endoskeleton alone is an android. It's only a cyborg with the addition of the flesh. This is not clear at the moment.
I'm amazed that an entry has got in about cyborgs which fails to even mention Martin Caidin's novel "Cyborg", which in turn spawned surely the most famous cyborg of the seventies, The Six Million Dollar Man (and the bionic woman, boy, dog, and hamster, probably...).
Also I'm surprised nobody mentioned that by definition everyone who has been unplugged from the Matrix is a cyborg...
Etc. etc.
H.
Errata and omissions
Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) Posted Sep 15, 2003
I have to add my own pedantic observations I'm afraid (to an otherwise excellent and highly enjoyable entry)
I'm not sure where you found "Biological" referenced as part of the expansion of "Cyborg". I've never seen that before, always just CYBernetic ORGanism. Biological is covered by "organism" anyway!
I also think you're jumping the gun a little assuming that Anakin's very basic prosthetic at the end of AOTC indicates the pinnacle of available technology - it could be a temporary measure while a more aesthetic replacement is manufactured. I can't see Lucas wanting to fix every single shot Christensen is in in the final film, after all - the CG burden is high enough already, and given the level of interaction a hand has with props and other actors, it's a ridiculously complicated task to pursue. I think you'll see him with a full fleshed out hand beneath a glove somehow - not the skeletal limb we've already seen.
And if you watch the end of ESB, there's a definite delay between Luke's rescue on Bespin and the Falcon leaving the medical frigate. Could be days or weeks - long enough for the medical facility to do the job properly. The hastily assembled force on Geonosis (if it mirrors real world military operations) would not be worrying about cosmetic details in surgery, just saving soldiers lives - their supplies and equipment would reflect this.
Also, neither quoted terminator models are really cyborgs. The T-1000 definitely isn't - not an ounce of flesh anywhere. And the T-101 is a flesh coated android - no organs, no organism to be enhanced. It's like wearing a coat - not integrated into the machine. The whole cyborg concept is that of replaced parts...
And on to Murphy, and I quote "Although technically a cyborg (organic and mechanical components), he is more machine than man."
He is definitely, not technically, a cyborg. And It's only his limbs that are replaced - the head and torso (the bulk of the body, I think you'll agree) are intact - heart, lungs, digestive system. Perhaps no reproductive organs though!
And finally, it's Jean-Luc Picard - one christian name, not two
I'll tell you what, it's nice to have your favourite subject matter to nitpick - good job!
Errata and omissions
Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) Posted Sep 15, 2003
Oops nearly forgot - nanoprobes are NOT atom sized. Only atoms are atom-sized. Everything else is made up of lots of atoms and, as such, are bigger. Nanotechnology is extremely tiny, but we are talking microscopic proportions, not molecular, and certainly not smaller still
Errata and omissions
Atlantic_Cable Posted Sep 24, 2003
> Also, neither quoted terminator models are really cyborgs. The T-1000 > definitely isn't - not an ounce of flesh anywhere. And the T-101 is a > flesh coated android - no organs, no organism to be enhanced. It's
> like wearing a coat - not integrated into the machine. The whole
> cyborg concept is that of replaced parts...
Yes OK, the T-1000 isn't organic, but it can emulate organic tissue very well. (Presumably Todd would have noticed when he touched Janell otherwise (The foster parents))
But the T-101 is a cyborg because the organic components are linked to the in-organic. He can feel damage to the skin and flesh and has blood. He's designed to look as human as possible, so he is warm, but as shown in T3, he has no pulse. He also weighs a heck of a lot. The paramedics try lifting him and one says:
"God he must weigh a ton!"
He gets up and you almost expect him to say:
"One and a half actually."
But that's more something Data would say.
Errata and omissions
Hoovooloo Posted Sep 24, 2003
"But the T-101 is a cyborg because the organic components are linked to the in-organic. "
That is not the definition of a cyborg, though, is it?
A cyborg is a CYBernetic ORGanism.
I.e. an ORGANISM that has been altered or enhanced CYBERNETICALLY.
The T-101 is not, and never has been, an organism. It is an android with a flesh overcoat. It's a question of origins.
There's also NO evidence whatsoever that the replicants in Blade Runner are cyborgs. If anything, they appear to be genetically enhanced humanoids - no mechanical or electronic parts at all. Specifically, Hong says "I just do eyes. Genetic design... just eyes.", to which Roy replies "Sure. If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes." But it's clear from what you see that these are entirely organic eyes - grown in a vat, perhaps, but organic, not mechanical like the ones in the Terminators.
The list lengthens...
H.
Errata and omissions
Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) Posted Sep 24, 2003
Well I'm onto a bit of a loser here because Cameron calls the T-101 a cyborg in the first film. But by your own quoted definitions, it isn't. A cyborg is an organism with mechanical parts or enhancements - integrated, not independent. And the T-101 is just a robot with a flesh coat.
I've noticed you make several assumptions in the entry - "Presumably Todd would have noticed...." (but did he have time? The T-1000 was in that household for a matter of hours. And it still doesn't make it a cyborg, however cleverly it can manipulate the texture of metal), the Anakin/prosthesis claim (which you haven't defended against my doubts I notice)...and I'm forced to wonder where "the T-101 is a cyborg because the organic components are linked to the in-organic. He can feel damage to the skin and flesh" all comes from. As hard as I try, I can't find any definitive authority other than the movies, which don't support that claim.
The early model of the T-101 has rubber skin. The new one has flesh - but no change to the robot model, so no integration. While the robot is certainly aware of damage, there is no suggestion of "feeling", of a nervous system. Any integration between the external organics and the endoskeleton would just leave a pointless vulnerability in the armoured shell. It's meant to camoflauge the fighting unit, not compromise it. And as for keeping it warm, and the blood flowing? Well, if I was designing it I'd have a nice little pump tucked away where all that flesh pads out the abdominal cavity - attached to the flesh, not the robot.
Still, without all your hard work I wouldn't have the opportunity to nitpick so don't take it to heart
Errata and omissions
Atlantic_Cable Posted Sep 25, 2003
> A cyborg is an organism with mechanical parts or enhancements -
> integrated, not independent. And the T-101 is just a robot with a
> flesh coat.
Technically true, but;
Have you seen the size of this Sci Fi project? There's no way I was considering making a seperate entry for terminator type machines AND for replicants (bio constructs).
> I've noticed you make several assumptions in the entry - "Presumably > Todd would have noticed...." (but did he have time? The T-1000 was in > that household for a matter of hours.
What I mean is that he touches his "wife" - the T-1000 on the arm and would have probably noticed if she felt cold and metal like.
> And it still doesn't make it a cyborg, however cleverly it can
> manipulate the texture of metal),
Yes, I know, but I've had arguements about this both in and out of H2G2 and the general consensus was to put all terminators in cyborgs, because that's the closest match.
> the Anakin/prosthesis claim (which you haven't defended against my
> doubts I notice)...
Hang on, I've got lost. I post this reply then answer your Anakin query in another post.
> I'm forced to wonder where "the T-101 is a cyborg because the organic > components are linked to the in-organic. He can feel damage to the
> skin and flesh" all comes from. As hard as I try, I can't find any
> definitive authority other than the movies, which don't support that > claim.
OK:
In the garage scene in Terminator 2, when Sarah is pulling the bullets out of the T-101.
John: Does it hurt when you get shot?
T-101: I sense injuries. The data could be called pain.
Sarah (Talking about bullet wounds.): Will these heal up?
T-101: Yes.
This would seem to point to the fact that the skin is still alive, and without organs to make blood and anti-bodies, it is reasonable to assume that the machine and organic components are interconnected. The skin is dependant on the machine to keep it "alive".
> The early model of the T-101 has rubber skin.
Not correct, I'm afraid. All T-101s look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. The earlier terminators did have rubber skin as you said, but they were earlier models, probably T-30 or T-50, something like that. Each model is an improvement on the previous, because SkyNet is a learning computer (or virus according to the T3 film) and it makes each one better.
> Any integration between the external organics and the endoskeleton
> would just leave a pointless vulnerability in the armoured shell.
Not true, fire, or rather, extreme heat can impair the T-101 as seen in the first film. Being able to sense the heat would be very useful. Being able to fell the breath of a human hiding behind a concrete pillar would also be useful.
However, as a foot soldier in the future battlefields, yes, skin would probably be a disadvantage. Plus all those naked Arnies on the battle field makes me shudder.
> It's meant to camoflauge the fighting unit, not compromise it. And as > for keeping it warm, and the blood flowing? Well, if I was designing > it I'd have a nice little pump tucked away where all that flesh pads > out the abdominal cavity - attached to the flesh, not the robot.
Why? The T-101 uses a hydrogen fuel cell as a power source. It probably makes a lot of heat and skin is an ideal way to get rid of that heat - plus it makes the terminator all that more real. Anyway, I was talking about the T-1000, who got close to Todd. He would have noticed if she was a cold as steel. Therefore, we can conclude that (at least the T-1000) has warm "skin", even though it is not living tissue.
> Still, without all your hard work I wouldn't have the opportunity to > nitpick so don't take it to heart
Oh, no, I love nit pickers.
Errata and omissions
Atlantic_Cable Posted Sep 25, 2003
> I also think you're jumping the gun a little assuming that Anakin's
> very basic prosthetic at the end of AOTC indicates the pinnacle of
> available technology - it could be a temporary measure while a more
> aesthetic replacement is manufactured.
As you say, there is a passage of time between Cloud City and the medial frigate. However, there is also passage of time between "That was my favourite hand!" and the wedding. So it might represent the best medical technology available.
Look at Darth Vader. He still had mechanical hands, which are presumably just black versions of the first one he got in Ep2. Why would he bother upgrading to an organic looking hand, then downgrade to mechanical? Yes, OK prehaps for the "style" factor - fear, but the simplest explanation is usually correct.
> I can't see Lucas wanting to fix every single shot Christensen is in > in the final film, after all.
He could just wear a glove. Probably black.
> I think you'll see him with a full fleshed out hand beneath a glove
> somehow - not the skeletal limb we've already seen.
Possibly. Only time will tell.
> The hastily assembled force on Geonosis (if it mirrors real world
> military operations) would not be worrying about cosmetic details in
> surgery, just saving soldiers lives - their supplies and equipment
> would reflect this.
True, but why would they bother with artificial limbs at all if they are only bothered with triage? Look at Luke on the Falcon fleeing Bespin. He has his (I'm sorry, there's no other word for it) stump in a crude end piece that appears to be feeding him painkillers introveinously. I think it's more likely that on Geonosis Anakin was given rudamentary medical care: painkillers and something to prevent infections. Then later was fitted for his prosthesis.
Having said that, prehaps it is an interim stage, a "learning" and temporary hand that allows him to get used to having and controlling it before the real replacement is fitted.
Errata and omissions
Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) Posted Sep 25, 2003
*rubs hands in glee*
>>This would seem to point to the fact that the skin is still alive, and without organs to make blood and anti-bodies, it is reasonable to assume that the machine and organic components are interconnected. The skin is dependant on the machine to keep it "alive".
Can't argue with the dialogue, but I still think you make a leap too far. Somewhere there needs to be a piece of machinery pumping blood and adding warmth to the flesh - but it doesn't need to be part of the endoskeleton. If you look at the abdomen of the robot it is little more than a spine. Given Arnie's waist size, there's more than enough space to fill to add the necessary organics plus a single pump/power unit. There's no logical need to have a more complicated interaction with the robot itself.
Fair point about the rubber skin though - dropped the ball there
Me: Any integration between the external organics and the endoskeleton would just leave a pointless vulnerability in the armoured shell.
You: Not true, fire, or rather, extreme heat can impair the T-101 as seen in the first film. Being able to sense the heat would be very useful. Being able to fell the breath of a human hiding behind a concrete pillar would also be useful.
You haven't really answered that I'm afraid. I was referring to a physical hole in the armour - which would be necessary if organics were to be fully integrated with it. Of course the robot itself would be vulnerable to extreme heat, just as it would explosives or extreme physical force. As for sensing heat - don't you think the robot would have rather more sophisticated temperature sensing and infra-red capabilities than skin would provide?
>>The T-101 uses a hydrogen fuel cell as a power source. It probably makes a lot of heat and skin is an ideal way to get rid of that heat - plus it makes the terminator all that more real.
And there's that great word probably again. Who says a hydrogen fuel cell is going to create an excess of heat. Isn't that bad design? And if it does - then why not have a robot that converts the heat into electrical energy? As for keeping the skin warm - it could be artificially heated or if the attached organs are sophisticated enough, the chemical reactions would maintain a certain temperature, as they do in the human body. I very much doubt the skin is used to dissipate surplus energy (show me a military device that is designed to waste energy) - it's far more logical that it receives exactly as much energy is required to maintain a steady 98.4...
As for the T-1000 - not arguing that it simulates a warm "living" skin - but it's still not organic. Though I take your point that there wasn't really anywhere else to put the terminators - Cameron calls them cyborgs after all. But he's still wrong .
As for Anakin, well, I still think it's highly dubious to assume that interplanetary travel and cloning technology are highly advanced but cosmetic standards in prosthetics are behind ours. I mean, if you'd narrowly escaped death and young Portman was wanting to jump your bones, wouldn't you catch the first flight to Naboo and get the hand upgraded later? I'd also say that the delays at the end of each film are very different - I'd be surprised if it was as much as 48 hours in AOTC, whereas ESB suggests a week or more - perhaps even a month.
You ask why the clone army would bother replacing a limb if triage was their priority - short answer, they were able to. I doubt the Falcon was similarly equipped.
And Darth Vader's prosthesis? Well, that's a wrist sized mass of wires sticking out of his arm - not a slender rod - a definite change. I think an interim stage is the most likely answer.
Can't wait to find out though.....
Cheers
Zeb
Errata and omissions
Tommy_Chewat Posted Dec 8, 2003
"Only atoms are atom-sized"
Not to be a geek (though I can't really help it), but what about quarks?
Key: Complain about this post
Errata and omissions
- 1: Hoovooloo (Sep 5, 2003)
- 2: Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) (Sep 15, 2003)
- 3: Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) (Sep 15, 2003)
- 4: Atlantic_Cable (Sep 24, 2003)
- 5: Hoovooloo (Sep 24, 2003)
- 6: Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) (Sep 24, 2003)
- 7: Atlantic_Cable (Sep 25, 2003)
- 8: Atlantic_Cable (Sep 25, 2003)
- 9: Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) (Sep 25, 2003)
- 10: Tommy_Chewat (Dec 8, 2003)
- 11: Zebedee (still Pool God after all these years) (Dec 11, 2003)
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