A Conversation for The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Dec 22, 2005
I've changed Moore to Livingston, and removed that extraneous apostrophe, R.
I'd like the author to be happy before I change the Poseidon reference.
I'm not going to change the "referenced" as that is the author's style - it's not up to me to rewrite other people's English to make it "sound better".
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Recumbentman Posted Dec 22, 2005
How do you feel about that, Big Al? I only go into such detail for pieces that I think are worthy of carving in stone.
While we're at it, would you allow a change from "locally known as caribou" to "known there as caribou" or suchlike since it is only local usage in the US, not in the other places reindeer live?
I've been looking around at the Livingston/Moore business. Apparently the poem was published anonymously in 1823 and only claimed by Moore much later, finally being included in his collected poems. Livingston's family claimed he had made it up in 1808 (I gather) and it had circulated anonymously from there.
Interestingly Snopes won't go farther than "However, rumors have long persisted that "A Visit from Saint Nicholas" was written not by Moore, but by a different New Yorker of Dutch descent named Henry Livingston — a claim which regained prominence at the end of 2000 when scholar and textual analyst Donald W. Foster published a defense of Livingston as the true author." http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/donner.asp
Do we need to call Henry Livingston "Major"?
Do we need to credit Gene Autry, who only sang Johnny Marks's song?
Cheers!
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Dec 22, 2005
>>Do we need to credit Gene Autry, who only sang Johnny Marks's song?
Was he the only person who sang it? Was he the person who made it famous? Did Johnny Marks sing the song himself?
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Recumbentman Posted Dec 22, 2005
Just read the poem again--it doesn't mention red!
"He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot" is all it says.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Dec 22, 2005
That's right.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Recumbentman Posted Dec 22, 2005
Certainly Gene Autry had the hit in 1949; and I suppose you would call a song "a Bing Crosby song" or whatever if that's how everyone knew it. But I think now is long enough after the event to credit the writer rather than the singer; Schubert's songs were similarly attached (in his time) to famous singers now forgotten.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Recumbentman Posted Dec 22, 2005
Big Al, would you accept this as a tighter version of the second-last par:
In 1823, ’Twas the Night Before Christmas was anonymously published in a newspaper, and the connection between Santa Claus and reindeer was made in the public mind. Here, eight reindeer pulled a white-bearded Santa Claus in a sleigh. Livingston may have based his description on his knowledge of diverse customs involving St Nicholas, brought to the New York area by Dutch, German and Scandinavian immigrants. Perhaps the eight reindeer echo Wotan's eight-legged steed.
And for a slightly tighter last sentence:
As is the wont of Christianity, these pagan customs have been adapted and integrated into Christmas traditions.
?
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
'One more correction needed: Moore has been left in one place where the name should have been changed to Livingston, in the second-last par: "a white-bearded Santa Claus in a sleigh. *Livingston* based his ideas on popular views of Christmas . . .'
Just spent ages looking for this, then realised that Gnomon had already changed it
Still thinking about your other points, R, in between looking after my 3.5 year old grandson - so finding it difficult to concentrate
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
before the development of the legend of Father Christmas, English texts from the Renaissance referenced reindeer antlers displayed during Christmas festivities.>
before the development of the legend of Father Christmas, English texts from the Renaissance mention reindeer antlers being displayed during Christmas festivities.
Please could you make these modifications which I've accepted from RM:
together with a number of pagan gods including the Teutonic god, Hold Nickar, synonymous with the Greek god, Poseidon.
> together with a number of pagan gods including the Teutonic god, Hold Nickar, corresponding tothe Greek god, Poseidon.
Hence the eight reindeer echo Wotan's eight-legged steed. > Perhaps the eight reindeer echo Wotan's eight-legged steed.
Also, please delete all references to Gene Autrey. (I was wondering about this at the time but as no one mentioned it in PR , I left it).
Still wondering how to handle the ‘Father Christmas dressed in red’
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
'Please could you make these modifications which I've accepted from RM': should've been the first semntence of that lot. Dunno how it moved itself
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
Ref the red suit, what do you think of this as a form of words for the intro, RM?
The 1823 poem of Major Henry Livingston Jr, 'Twas the Night Before Christmas'1 crystallised this image, and countless Christmas cards reinforced it. Father Christmas appears as a rather small, plump, white-bearded old man, dressed in furs. Such imagery also frequently depicts him:
• Flying through the air.
• Flying through the air in or on a sleigh, pulled by reindeer.
• Delivering children's presents down a chimney.
Furthermore, although an advertising campaign by the Coca Cola Company in the 1930s made a red-garbed image of Father Christmas almost universal, this already fairly well-established by the late 19th Century, following the introduction to the American public of the Victorian English custom of sending Christmas cards, by a Boston printer named Louis Prang. He introduced a red-suited Santa in 1885.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Dec 22, 2005
I've done all the changes in your posting 29, BigAl. I'll wait for a consensus on the red suit thing.
I'm surprised you haven't heard of Gene Autry, the Singing Cowboy!
Home, Home on the Range....
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
IU have heard of him, that's why he was in the Entry. It was the song writer I'd not really heard of
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Recumbentman Posted Dec 22, 2005
Al - - your new intro to the red suit looks fine to me. Good to bring in Prang (you learn things here all right, I didn't know about that before).
Thanks for not taking umbrage at my interference
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows Posted Dec 22, 2005
Not at all. Tell you the truth, I had noticed this myself after it left PR, but I hoped no one would notice
Gnomon, please could you replace the existing passage with this:
The 1823 poem of Major Henry Livingston Jr, 'Twas the Night Before
Christmas'1 crystallised this image, and countless Christmas cards reinforced it. Father Christmas appears as a rather small, plump, white-bearded old man, dressed in furs. Such imagery also frequently depicts him:
• Flying through the air.
• Flying through the air in or on a sleigh, pulled by reindeer.
• Delivering children's presents down a chimney.
Furthermore, although an advertising campaign by the Coca Cola Company in the 1930s made a red-garbed image of Father Christmas almost universal, this was already fairly well-established by the late 19th Century, following the introduction to the American public of the Victorian English custom of sending Christmas cards, by a Boston printer named Louis Prang. He introduced a red-suited Santa in 1885.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Dec 22, 2005
Remind me of this tomorrow!
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office Posted Sep 3, 2010
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Sep 3, 2010
Bounce again when I'm slightly more sober - say in two or three days.
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office Posted Sep 3, 2010
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Sep 7, 2010
I've made the changes you requested, BigAl, but I think the whole thing is now a bit cumbersome. You introduce topics such as the reindeer, the red coat, and so on, and explain them, then introduce them again and explain them in more detail.
I think this would benefit from you reading it through and planning it out a bit better, so that each topic is introduced at the appropriate point.
Key: Complain about this post
Changes and corrections made: A6084218 - The Influence of Fly Agaric on the Iconography of Father Christmas
- 21: Gnomon - time to move on (Dec 22, 2005)
- 22: Recumbentman (Dec 22, 2005)
- 23: Gnomon - time to move on (Dec 22, 2005)
- 24: Recumbentman (Dec 22, 2005)
- 25: Gnomon - time to move on (Dec 22, 2005)
- 26: Recumbentman (Dec 22, 2005)
- 27: Recumbentman (Dec 22, 2005)
- 28: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 29: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 30: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 31: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 32: Gnomon - time to move on (Dec 22, 2005)
- 33: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 34: Recumbentman (Dec 22, 2005)
- 35: BigAl Patron Saint of Left Handers Keeper of the Glowing Pickle and Monobrows (Dec 22, 2005)
- 36: Gnomon - time to move on (Dec 22, 2005)
- 37: TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office (Sep 3, 2010)
- 38: Gnomon - time to move on (Sep 3, 2010)
- 39: TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office (Sep 3, 2010)
- 40: Gnomon - time to move on (Sep 7, 2010)
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