Conversation:

People in England who argue against Scottish independence "because without Scotland we'd always have Tory governments".

How about looking at it from the other side? Without England, Scotland would never have Tory governments. Why should they have Tory governments foist upon them when they never bloody vote for them?

If people in England don't want Tory governments, perhaps they should persuade the electorate in England to stop voting for the Tories instead of hanging their hopes on the Scots saving their bacon.

I sympathise - I genuinely do - with English socialists and social democrats who don't want to live under Tory rule. But ot's not Scotland's problem.

Well I raised this issue with someone recently. There was a moan about how at least houses are cheaper in Northern England/ Wales/ Scotland and there's less crowding. If only they could move!

So when folk voted for economic polices that would suck employment into the South-East...did they not think there'd be consequences? We have been telling them!

You are, as usual, quite right.

Another annoying aspect is that the only way a lot of southern English Labour voters could be persuaded to vote for them was by turning it into something other than Labour.

have you seen how hard the persuading is tho, on the swingometer in my constituency we would need a 11% swing to Labour in the 1997 heyday to shift a tory from this seat

and then everyone pracitically would have had to voted for Blair

it is all just horrible

just in case i have to say I don't whinge, just look plaintive but feel I have no right to say on this issue

Nobody ever said politics was *easy*. It's a slog.

I think what grates with me is that whenever the issue of Scottish independence arises, the debate in England seems to centre around "Should we *allow* them to have independence?"

There's an enormous amount of effort being expended all of a sudden into persuading us that it wouldn't be in our interest. It's nice to know people have our interests at heart.

Which English are you hearing saying this KB? I thought that was a cliche.

Most people I talk to are more than happy for Scotland to be independant..they are culturally quite different from English traditions. 2 or 3 hundred years of Britain is nothing. Hey most people have woken up to end of Empire..the Union is the last domino.

And its very silly to suppose that there won't be a re-balancing of voting patterns when Scotland is independant. People won't want the unhealthiness of perpetual Tories...there maybe all sorts of exciting political upheavals..besides dangers of the extreme right in England..I'm all for the ride..

Still that's just my experience of English peoples' attitudes.

I'm not sure it is so much about as about as allows as who wants?

Personally Scotland please stay, totally selfish if someone gave me a vote and told me to vote in *my* best interests, I'd vote against

in reality I don't vote like that and yes it is a slog

does anyone else feel like they have aged considerably since the last election?

It's true that those who see the dangers of a permanently Tory England are nevertheless those who tend to wish an independent Scotland luck nevertheless.

Come and join us. Bring some bevvy.

thank you

I'll bring a roll up, or the ability to roll up, but you know I can't stay

Just the ones I hear discussing politics, Effers. I do agree that Scotland leaving the union of Engalnd, Wales and Norn Irn would probably change voting patterns in England in the long term.

Speaking for myself, I don't think I'd like to be part of the UK without Scotland - I think I'd move there - but in a sense, my opinion is irrelevant. It ain't my call to make.

to be honest I think the rest of the UK should gang up and chuck the south-east out of it

The North of England always has a horrible time (as do places like Wales and Cornwall) but nobody seems to care about the North East, for example. There was an interesting article in the Guardian today if I could rouse myself to dig it out.

You are welcome to chuck us out. London is an island of socialism...and we'll offload vast numbers to emptier parts of the UK to reclaim the magical countryside of Kent, and Sussex...

Yeah can see some advantages..the rural English traditions can be combined with the greatest city on earth Neat little country in the making.

To some extent - this is Tough Love - it's up to the North East to care about itself.

Yes, I totally agree. Perhaps one of the side-effects of current Scottish stooshie will be to get the rest of the UK - even the South East - to think about the underlying issues.

Actually I don't think Scotland will become independent...and I'm also pessimistic about wider change. The South Eastern bloc is too influential. Relatively affluent South Easterners will continue to vote in their interest, even if it's at the expense of others. One view of this is that it's just Democracy. But it hardly helps.

One thing to bear in mind, though...Scottish independence isn't about Scotland vs England or Scotland vs the South East.

It's about Scotland.

Indeed and I would hope that the people in Scotland consider very carefully what would be best for them and act accordingly.

there is a long tradition of calls for UDI for Yorkshire - maybe Scottish secession (sp?) might wake my countyfellows up again.

But... London? Socialist?

Yeah...I seem to remember reading that Boris was leading Ken in the polls...

>But... London? Socialist?<

What's so hilarious?

Vast numbers living in the inner cities which makes up 90% of London. Tiny bit in the middle..called the City of London which is governed by its own authority..a few rich areas. Look at the number of Labour MPs...compared to Tories.

Still if you know better Sho.

I'm leaving this now. Yeah I thought it might be interesting to do with the break up of the Union..and to do with Scotland also England reclaiming her identity thanks to Scotland's move.