A Conversation for Ask h2g2

Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 21

paulh, scolding the squirrels in the park

Maybe Jar Jar Binks was female? smiley - winkeye

smiley - run


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 22

Hoovooloo

Bluebottle: "Essentially the question is 'how many important female characters are there in the Star Wars films?' "

No, the question was specifically about pilots. Not important female characters. Everyone knows the orij trij had just the one important female character, who ended up posing in a metal bikini. But hey - the seventies/eighties. That argument is over. Nobody's saying episodes 4, 5 and 6 aren't problematic re: sexism, just like, y'know, basically every single other movie made that decade and the couple of decades after.

But it's the 21stC, and the MAIN character in BOTH the new films is female, plus in RO the apparent *leader* of the rebellion is a woman, and there's a woman of colour in a clear leading role on the rebel council. The film actually passes the Bechdel test (hell, the TRAILER passes the Bechdel test), which is more than can be said for Batman vs. Superman, Deadpool, Star Trek Beyond or a host of others. So poncing about saying "but what about teh pilotz???" seems ridiculous. There is one. Just one. But it's one more than there was in the orij trij, and any given pilot is literally one-line laser-cannon-fodder anyway. Like I said - why the fuss?



Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 23

paulh, scolding the squirrels in the park

Why does Ruth's song from "Pirates of Penzance" come to mind right now?

"Though I'm a nurse,
You might do worse
Than make your boy a pilot."
smiley - musicalnote

Maybe it's because I'm in Boston, which had a prominent woman pirate in the 18th century. smiley - biggrin

Pirate, pilot, same thing if you're apt to mishear things. smiley - bigeyes

But I'm off topic. Sorry. smiley - flustered


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 24

Orcus

Ching Shih - now THERE was a female pirate - Boston Schmoston smiley - winkeye


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 25

Mr. X ---> "You may be a king or a little street-sweeper, but sooner or later you dance with the Reaper...."

Going back a little bit --- Tarkin was BRILLIANT!!! How can you possibly complain? If I didn't already know that he was dead I would've just assumed it was the same guy.

I did have a couple problems with the movie though. Mostly minor. I would've preferred that the Mon Calamari admiral be a guy in a suit, instead of CGI. Frankly it looks better.

And the pacing was a little faster than it should've been. But seriously, THIS is the movie they SHOULD have made in the first place. The Force Awakens is AWFUL.... smiley - groan

smiley - pirate


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 26

Baron Grim

Tarkin and Leia's CGI is still in the uncanny valley for me. It was good, don't get me wrong, but something is still just not quite right.

Idoru comes to mind.


I definitely enjoyed R1 more than The Force Awakens, but I think we're into a whole new paradigm with Star Wars, especially with Disney owning it now. There will be so many iterations that comparisons will be a bit pointless. It'll be like comparing TV episodes of Doctor Who. Yeah, some will be arguably better than others, but you know there will be a new episode soon anyway. And I expect some episodes will be really bad, maybe even worse than I-III.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 27

Bluebottle

Though filming on Episode VIII has finished, when it comes to Episode IX will CGI Leia return?

<BB<


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 28

Otto Fisch - 3 hours, 29 minutes, 49 seconds


Loved it. I did wonder about the relative lack of women (especially among the pilots), but mainly I just loved it. My friend who I saw it with told me that a lot of the pilots (at least those who survived) are the same pilots (with some clever CGI) who also appear in the first star wars film - don't know if that's true or not, but he seemed pretty sure. I did notice that there seemed to be a lot of moustaches, and I guess there does needs to be continuity between the X-Wing pilots in R1 and in the first film, because it's the next battle.

I saw the film in 3d which makes everything a bit blurry, but Tarkin was definitely uncanny valley. More Mass Effect than Star Wars. Leia, though... I saw the film after the news of Carrie Fisher's death, which made it even more... odd. Audible gasp in a quarter-full cinema. Leia looked... ghostly.... or angelic vision.

Really liked the reprogrammed imperial droid. Worried that he'd turn into Kryten at one point, but worked really well. And "I've got a bad feeling about..."

Like a lot of people here I found myself thinking that it would only make thematic (not to mention continuity) sense if everyone dies. I thought this quite early, but worried that they'd pull away from it, somehow have at least two of them survive. But it was handled perfectly... victorious, one final peaceful moment, imperial baddie killed by his own weapon. No time to dwell on that, mad scramble, make everyone want to go watch the first film again...


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 29

Hoovooloo

"THIS is the movie they SHOULD have made in the first place"

They couldn't have made this movie first. It's too bleak, too rollicking, too *different*. They had to shoehorn that badass Vader boarding scene in (not that I'm complaining) or there'd have been no lightsaber action AT ALL.

I see it this way: The Force Awakens was a necessary step for Disney. It was the one that showed they knew how to make a Star Wars movie, to reassure the fans that they weren't going to make "The Phantom Menace" or similar. On that level, on the level of being basically a retooled remake of the first film, it worked brilliantly. Which then allowed them to flip the script with the second and have everyone die triumphantly.

Yes - Red Leader and Gold Leader (the X Wing and Y Wing flight leaders respectively) are indeed the same actors from the first film. Not sure if any of the other pilots are reused - I didn't see Biggs or Wedge, and if I'm going to recognise Gold Leader I'd have spotted those guys. I think...


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 30

Baron Grim

I enjoyed the process of realization I experienced regarding the likely survival of any of the Rogue One members. Once I remembered the line about many people dying to get this information, I realized there was no need for any survivors. But I still experienced plenty of suspense. I knew they'd triumph, that was a foregone conclusion, but I still half (and every decreasingly) expected one or two characters to miraculously escape to physically deliver the plans.

Then I noticed that oversized and very prominent communications dish.


I also appreciated the pointed way they tried to make the Force a more spiritual aspect. All that chanting may have been a bit heavy handed, but that midichlorian business was just so crap it had to be addressed directly.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 31

Hoovooloo

"Once I remembered the line about many people dying to get this information"

Hmm. The bit you didn't remember was that that line was from "Return of the Jedi", it was quite specific that "Bothans" died, and it was in regard to the information about the second Death Star, the one under construction over the moon of Endor. But never mind, I'm sure you not the only one to make that mistake.

The best bit, for me, was the bit where the door failed fully to open, and even as his buddies were being forced-choked and sabered TO DEATH, that one Rebel soldier was desperately shoving the stolen data "tapes" (that's how Admiral Motti referred to them, just before he got his own demo of the Force - yay the 70s!) through the crack in the door. It really made you appreciate just how close-run a thing it was. I'll skip lightly over how it was possible for Threepio and Artoo to have been on that specific ship even though we saw them left behind on Yavin IV as the fleet left with Threepio complaining about never being told anything. (Possible explanation: that was a different 3P0 and R2 unit - they are basically mass-produced appliances after all).


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 32

Baron Grim

Was Yavin IV in EP:III?


Yeah... never happened! I don't care if Lucas says so. C3PO and R2D2 should never have been in the prequels. There is NO DAMN WAY C3PO was built by child-slave "Ani".

It makes sense to see them in R1 on board Princess Leia's ship where they enter the story.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 33

Sho - with added slapping hand

>>No, the question was specifically about pilots. Not important female characters<<

yes. I was asking about female pilots because there has been this HUGE thing about how finally (finally, oh thank Bob FINALLY) women are getting some Star Wars characters. Because the film (along with TFA) has been very very careful to be inclusive and that is a Good Thing.

but then - Bang! -back to mostly male pilots (did love seeing Red and Gold Leaders though) except for one or two right at the end just when I was getting Really Bloody Cross about it (because not only mostly men, it really jarred given the inclusiveness of the Rogue One crew that they were mostly white too...) I think 2 were shoved in.

Isn't all the "chewie is female" stuff something that has been retrofitted? I prefer Chewbacca to be genderless or non-binary or something anyway.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 34

paulh, scolding the squirrels in the park

I don't plan to see any of the episodes again.

Long ago and far away are fine, but I have to face tomorrow and the day after as well. "Moomlight" and "Hacksaw Ridge" slipped away from me, but I might yet be able to see "Silence," "Miss Sloan," "Twentieth Century Women" and "Hell or high water."

"Ropue One" has a 50/50 shot at an Oscar nomination in something like sound or cinematography or costuming. The more prestigious acting and screenwriting and directorial nominations probably won't include R1. Sorry.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 35

Orcus

>"Once I remembered the line about many people dying to get this information"

Hmm. The bit you didn't remember was that that line was from "Return of the Jedi", it was quite specific that "Bothans" died, and it was in regard to the information about the second Death Star, the one under construction over the moon of Endor. But never mind, I'm sure you not the only one to make that mistake.<

Yeah, this line is what made me think that everyone was going to die.

And yes, I've had it pointed out to me elsewhere that this was a ROTJ quote. Glad I'm not the only one too smiley - ok


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 36

paulh, scolding the squirrels in the park

I'm glad that everything is under control, then. smiley - ok

I can safely indulge in my own strange viewing habits, knowing that the Star Wars Universe is lovingly looked after. smiley - smiley


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 37

Hoovooloo

Who gives a monkey's what gets Oscars? They are demonstrably repeatedly wronger than Wrong Ron McWrong, winner of last year's Mr. Wrong competition, about almost everything. People most often seem to get Oscars because it's their turn, rather than because what they've done is any good. Leonardo diCaprio, I'm looking at you. And yes, Al Pacino, you too - nothing for either of the two good Godfathers, but you win for Scent of a Woman?

And films get them because they're worthy, not because they're any good. Forrest Gump was better than Pulp Fiction? Don't make me laugh. And the Shining was nominated for... nothing.

Anyway, back to an actually good film:

"Was Yavin IV in EP:III?"

No, because the end of episode 3 was the foundation of the empire. Yavin IV was the Rebel base, a base they only needed once there was an Empire to rebel against.

"Yeah... never happened! I don't care if Lucas says so. C3PO and R2D2 should never have been in the prequels."

Totally disagree. Their presence was entirely justified, especially Artoo's. One of the best scenes in TPM was the bit where the droids head out onto the outer surface of Padme's ship to effect running repairs under fire. Very "Silent Running".

"There is NO DAMN WAY C3PO was built by child-slave "Ani"."

Again, I disagree. He lives and works in a junkyard. Watto clearly has a soft spot for him. Indulging him by letting him knock together things from parts lying around is entirely in character. In our reality, he'd maybe make a go-kart or something. In the SW 'verse, it's not unreasonable that he's able to make a pod-racer and a droid.

Bear in mind that the Jawas are apparently able to sustain a large nomadic community AND the huge vehicle they travel around in based entirely on the money they make selling droids they scrounge, steal or literally find wandering about the surface of a barren desert planet. Droids are literally ubiquitous in this universe, so the idea that a talented tinkerer could knock one up from parts is entirely fine to me.

"It makes sense to see them in R1 on board Princess Leia's ship where they enter the story."

But that's my point - that's NOT where we see them! Their shoe-horned-in cameo bafflingly has Threepio complaining to Artoo ON THE SURFACE of Yavin IV while the fighter element are LEAVING to join the fleet. The actual fleet (composed mainly of things like Nebulon-B frigates, Mon Calamari cruisers and other ships that clearly aren't designed ever to make planetfall) is in orbit. And a matter of *minutes* later, they are somehow magically onboard the Tantive IV, which is a corvette umbilically docked INSIDE a much larger ship.

As I say, the only way I can rationalise this is that the 3P0 and Artoo units we see in that "cameo" are not, in fact, the ones we know and love, but a visually and aurally identical but entirely different pair of droids. If anyone has any better ideas how they got where they needed to be (bearing in mind that among all the advanced tech of the SW 'verse they do NOT have teleporters), I'd love to hear it.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 38

Bluebottle

I'll have to re-watch the battle scene to see if one ship arrives at a later moment than the others, perhaps hiding at the back.

<BB<


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 39

Baron Grim

I don't have a problem with Ani building droids. But if you're going to complain about C-3PO being shoehorned into R1, but take exception to my complaining about him being bulldozed into TPM we're not going to have get very far. (I've only watched Rogue One once, so I was mistaken where the droids were. As they weren't apparently accompanying Leia then I also agree that they shouldn't have appeared in the film.)

C-3PO's presence in TPM was solely for nostalgia and toy sales. It may make good sense for the story that Anikin tinkers, builds droids, and pod races; but it doesn't make good sense for him to have built THAT droid and then to never later acknowledge doing so or recognize his creation and to also have the memory of that droid wiped so he doesn't later recognize his creator. It's an even more unnecessary and awkward cameo.


Rogue One: Carry On Up The Kyber (Crystals)

Post 40

paulh, scolding the squirrels in the park

"People most often seem to get Oscars because it's their turn, rather than because what they've done is any good. Leonardo diCaprio, I'm looking at you. And yes, Al Pacino, you too - nothing for either of the two good Godfathers, but you win for Scent of a Woman? And films get them because they're worthy, not because they're any good. Forrest Gump was better than Pulp Fiction? Don't make me laugh. And the Shining was nominated for... nothing." [Hoovooloo]

It's precisely because of threads like this that I go out of my way to see these movies. I also see the big popular ones, like Rogue One and The Force Awakens. There is no way to know what people of the future will look back on as great movies. Oscars may go to some of them, while missing some great movies.

I suffered through "Revenant" and "Django" and "No Country for old men" and some of the highly rated boxing movies. Having done that, I can enjoy "Sing" and prefer "Force Awakens" to "Rogue One." At least I saw them. I paid my dues.


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