A Conversation for Ask h2g2

Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 1

FWR

Firstly Happy St Georges Day and a happy may or may not be your birthday to Mr Shakespeare!
I am proud to call myself an Englishman, I’m also proud of my Irish and Celtic roots, however we as a mongrel race fall way behind the other melting pots of the world when it comes to one thing: admitting we’re actually quite good at something. Modesty is one thing “In peace there’s nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility”, but do we have to be so all the time?
I was called ‘wretchedly humble’ the other day when I laughed off a compliment about a piece of writing. A piece I was actually quite pleased with too, so why the modest stillness and humility? What stops us accepting a compliment and admitting our successes?
One only has to look at sporting events, winners from everywhere else are eager to tell the pundits how fantastic they are or pose for adoring crowds, one finger raised to admit ‘Yes, look at me I am the best!’
English champions however tend to state any victory was all down to the team, the backroom boys and girls, lady luck or just that the other side were having a particularly bad day.
‘Good job’, ‘Way to go’ and ‘Good on ya mate’ are shunned by the English, we prefer ‘Lucky sod’, ’spawny git’ or simply an awkward silence and profuse blushing whilst we shuffle to the back of a crowd hoping the ground will swallow us up.
Maybe it’s down to a national shame that we once had a vast empire built on thievery and slavery and we don’t like to draw to much attention to our links with the green and pleasant land? Maybe we’ve been watered down so much since Churchill’s days we’ve forgotten our true national identity, what other nation can let its neighbours have their own parliaments and national assemblies, but not possess one of their own? Even our national flag can’t be waved nowadays without worries about links to the far right.
Maybe it is time to “show us here the mettle of your pasture. Let us swear that you are worthy of your breeding, which I doubt not”?
So Happy 23rd and to Elektragheorgheni, thank you very much, it is a good piece! (even for an Englishman!)

FWR


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 2

Icy North

{One only has to look at sporting events... }

Interesting choice, as I'd have thought that was one area where the English have changed in recent years: The football celebrations are wilder. Cricket has become far more competitive (see how Australia used Stuart Broad's attitude to their advantage in the last Ashes series); Olympic athletes have performance coaches who micromanage every fraction of a second of advantage. They use the word 'medal' as a verb. Wouldn't have happened in my day.


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 3

Orcus

In my experience the English are incredibly arrogant about being good at a lot of things they're not but hey ho.

Scottish parents, brought up in England so I don't consider myself English but most of my remaining scottish relatives do ha ha.

Depends on your perspective


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 4

FWR

How many of those who get interviewed for man of the match ect carry on that attitude when they're away from their team mates tho Icy?

I sincerely hope you gain independence north of the border Orcus, maybe we can follow suit? Have you considered dual nationality?


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 5

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

smiley - bigeyes
Nationalism is the manipulation of primary evolutionary impulses
found in all herding and family (tribal) based groupings. Through
re-purposing our innate sense of 'us vs them', power brokers have
tried to create larger, arbitrarily defined groupings into national
identities for the same reasons that corporations swallow up smaller
competitors and integrate a wider variety of abilities and resources.

The powers that be want to, and are often able to, command, rule and
tax even larger and larger populations by creating artificial boundaries
and defending them with larger and larger military forces.
(All roads lead to Rome.)

Nature (if you will) generates basic emotional ties and bounds
on much smaller groups - a valley here, a mountain top there -
and these smaller groups become invested in maintaining their own
culture and bloodlines. This is observable in wolf-packs and bird flocks.

But since the advent of larger national identities - the co-joining of
dukedoms, kingdoms, city-states, etc in the Unification of Germany,
Italy, etc - to create larger economic and military blocks, there's been
an artificial re-interpretation of 'us vs them' by those who manage and
govern populations made up of traditionally hostile and competitive groups.

Someone once said that "all politics are local" and this is a Truism
which defies all the recent arbitrary co-joinings of tribes to establish
the new nation states. And in spite of globalisation and the newest
universal trends for whirled-wide commonalities (through rock and roll,
celebrity worship, film/TV and internet connectivity) it is impossible
to negate the Tower of Babble effect when the going gets tough.

The 'United' States of America and the European 'Union' are the obvious
examples of wildly contrary tribal groups trying in vain to have common
purposes above the primitive impulses of local politics and family bonds.

Tribal warfare, vendettas and language barriers strain against all
efforts to unify unnaturally larger groups all over the globe. The
racial and linguistic differences in former Soviet Union satellites,
the blood-letting in Africa and the fractures in American society
caused by regional difference and interests will continue to disrupt
all efforts to unify the human species.

smiley - zen
~jwf~


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 6

Pastey

I know what you mean FWR, I think it mostly came to the fore, or rather I remember it coming to the fore with David Beckham, who used to applaud the crowd at football matches, thanking them for coming along and supporting the teams.

It then seems to have crept in that they do always say it wasn't just them, it was a team effort.

"So, you scored the eight goals that thrashed your opponents, even though your side was down to five men, how's that feel?"
"Well, it wasn't just me out there, it was a team effort."

That sort of thing.

I think the reason could well be though that while we English can be arrogantly egocentric, we've also been learning (the hard way) that while nobody like losers, we detest sore winners. We don't like people who gloat about how good they are, who rub our noses in our ineffectualness while parading their own greatness.

I'd like to hope though that we are realising that we're not doing anything on our own. The footballer that scores the goals isn't the only person on the pitch. The Formula1 driver who wins the grand prix didn't build the car themselves (not these days anyway). Any credit that we could lay claim to, someone else helped us get there. And it's only right to acknowledge them.

But deities save us from award speeches where they get out their address book to make sure they don't miss anyone.


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 7

paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant

Quiet confidence allows one to appear humble while knowing that, if it became necessary or advisable, one could crow like a rooster smiley - biggrin.

I remember a clever song by Flanders and Swann, in which the first two lines are

"The English, the English, the English are best.
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest."

The song then goes on to dump on the Irish, the Welsh, and the Scots, all in rather silly ways, since it's intended as a silly song which possibly could no longer be sung in public due to politically correct considerations. smiley - erm

There's also

"Rule, Britannia, Britannia rules the waves.
Britons never shall be slaves,"

Which dates to around 1742, when the British were apparently quite sure of themselves, or wanted to appear so. A few rather nasty wars have come along since then, along with divestiture of some overseas possessions.

In any event, I had *no* idea that the British were no longer as self-0confident as they once were. I shall have to send some confidence- building cards to any British people that I know. It would be a pity to have such a great nation wallowing in despair. smiley - hug


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 8

Rod

Ah, paulh, thanks for the lovely thought but … not a card please - just send money


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 9

Hoovooloo

"They use the word 'medal' as a verb. "

I think that's actually rather sweet. It would be terribly vulgar to simply use a real verb as arrogant and common as "win", wouldn't it?


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 10

Icy North

I'm a great advocate of embracing change in language. I grudgingly accept that one ("We medalled in all three cycling events"), but it grates, and I will forever associate it with the un-English attitudes instilled in our athletes by performance coaches.


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 11

paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant

"English" is used as a noun in tennis, as referring to putting some spin on the ball. smiley - whistle


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 12

FWR

Wouldn't you get disqualified for meddling in a race, cheating surely?


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 13

Pink Paisley

Meddalling isn't necessarily winning though. It could be 2nd or 3rd.

Or as Dale Earnhardt (a racing driver) said, 'second is just the first loser'. (I may have misquoted, but not by much).

PP.


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 14

Maria

I think I, and many spaniards are English, that or maybe that what some of you assume as English, are just general human traits.

Many people don´t like Fernando Alonso because he made some comments after winning a race and he didn´t mention the team, which had had a tough time. That was very much critizised.
On the other hand, Vicente del Bosque, the coach of the spanish football team, is very much respected and esteemed. Why? he´s genuinely humble. People appreciate that, everywhere.


and ... on April 23rd, we commemorate the death of Cervantes, in a very solemn way all around the country, schools, bookshops,libraries, bars... In Cataluña, people give each other a smiley - rose and a smiley - book and they celebrate their saint patron: sant Jordi, yes the same sant George...

you see... we are all very much the same...

I hope not to have increased your national identity crisis smiley - run


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 15

FWR

Thanks Maria, that could explain why I get on so well with the Spanish side of my family!


Why are we English so bad at being good?

Post 16

paulh, vaccinated against the Omigod Variant

"you see... we are all very much the same... "

Thank you, Maria smiley - hug. I was hoping someone would say that. smiley - smiley

I'm also glad to know about the respect that Cervantes gets on his birthday. He isn't as well-known outside Spain as he is inside. This is partly because it has been very difficult to produce a translation that does justice to the original.


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