A Conversation for The Freedom From Faith Foundation
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 26, 2005
Yes, placebo could well be the basis for it.
Clinical psychologists often ask patients to fill one in at their first session...but then they don't use it.
Scales for things like depression hypomania can be useful...either as self-diagnostic aids, or to reassure patients that they are fit the pattern of a common illness.
But as for IQ tests.....Pish! Binet invented them as a way of identifying children who were falling below the average and therefore needed more help. They were never meant to select the 'better' children and send them to better resourced schools.
There have been various theories of multiple intelligence - ie different kinds of aptitude for different things (numbers, language, inter-personal skills, self-knowledge, etc) But why measure them? Who's to say that one kind of intelligence is better than another? Who's to say that *any* kind of intelligence is better than, say, being able to run fast, to give a good back rub or having an attractive body
Lies, damned lies and statistics
GTBacchus Posted Jan 26, 2005
I'd say that being able to run fast or to give a good back rub are both related to types of intelligence. As far as attractive bodies go... there's some real pretty covers on some real dumb books out there.
Ultimately, life is the only intelligence test that means anything. If you can make it work out for you, who's to call you stupid?
Still playing along though... I think I switched from a T-type to a J-type around the time I stopped being an atheist.... and I'm an early first house Capricorn, with moon and rising signs Sag!
GTB
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
"early"? "first house"? Too deep for me. I'm a Capri-quarius , being born on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius (January 20th 1955 - my 50th birthday was a week ago. Half a century - not bad, eh? ). I don't know my moon sign(s), but I was born in the (Chinese) year of the Horse, if that helps?
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 27, 2005
>>I'd say that being able to run fast or to give a good back rub are both related to types of intelligence
So what do you mean by intelligence? Are you saying that these abilities are correlated with a notional 'general intelligence'? In which case, could Albert Einstein run fast and give good back rubs? I'd say they are more closely related to the skills of running and massage. My other point was that these, like physical attractiveness, are simple matters of luck. We should be humble about our advantages.
I'm a Caesarean, by the way.
(Actually, according to astrological mumbo-jumbo, I'm a Capricorn also. What does that tell us? Same star sign as Jesus, of course.)
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
Well it tells us that you were born in the winter, and maybe suffered more from the cold in your first few months of life than those born at other times? It also tells us that you were conceived in the spring (April), unless you were delivered prematurely. The fertility of sperm, and maybe the gender of the child, are affected by temperature, so this could also be meaningful.
Even more speculative : astrological data defines the position of the planets at the time of your birth (and by extension, at the time of conception), and the micro-variations in gravity due to the position of the planets could have some influence on you and your development (although it seems that such a small effect is unlikely to result in significant effects on you).
There *are* possible (if not plausible! ) ways in which we could be influenced by our star signs, though I know of no evidence to support this....
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 27, 2005
Hmm. I'd be inclined to identify an effect *before* trying to speculate as to its potential causes, myself.
'Capricorn, eh? What are they like?'
'He is the Messiah, the chosen one, King of the Jews'
'And that's Capricorn, is it?'
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
Others have claimed there is an effect; I merely observe that there are potential hypotheses to explain how astrology *could* (not 'does'! ) have a basis in the real world. Personally, I make no claims at all regarding astrology.
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
BTW, *you* asked ; I responded with a number of possible answers to your question.
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 27, 2005
Sorry - to clarify: Three different Capricorns with divergent opinions, no?
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
Another trend emerging? All contributors so far are intuitive thinkers. Several seem to be Capricorns.
Any more Capricorns?
Any more wacky features some or all of us share?
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Matholwch - Brythonic Tribal Polytheist Posted Jan 27, 2005
Hi P-C
Sorry to bust the trend but I am sun-sign Leo, as well as being a Chinese Pig.
As for the rest of your question, what do you call wacky? After all I travel to the otherworld and commune with gods, spirits and the sidhe.
Blessings,
Matholwch y Mochenddu /|\
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 27, 2005
<...what do you call wacky? After all I travel to the otherworld and commune with gods, spirits and the sidhe.>
Sounds perfectly normal to me....
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Gone again Posted Jan 28, 2005
Note: I know and happily acknowledge that this was posted as a joke!
The trouble is, what you say implies not only that Math's view of the 'real' world is mistaken in some way, but also that yours is not. This leads, as we all know, to lengthy discussions about objectivity and the like.
In the final analysis, neither your judgement nor Math's can be shown to be correct (i.e. proved). So why do you say (in effect) 'I am right and you are wrong' when you can't offer proof (any more than the other guy can)?
Pattern-chaser
"Who cares, wins"
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 28, 2005
Fairynuff. No need to go there again.
Anyhoo...back to astrology. So: We've maybe found that Capricorns may have a tendency to think intuitively. What other hypothesis shall we now selectively test to demonstrate that astrology works?
It reminds me about some garbage I heard on TV about an identical twins study. Two middle aged men were separated at birth and raised in adjacent counties in one of the southern US states. There were all sorts of similarities...they worked in a similar industry...their wives had the same name...they drove the same model of car. The researchers, who were obviosuly ignorant about statistics worked out the proabbility of the job was X, of the wife's name Y and of the car, Z....so the chance of having *all* those things in common was X times Y times Z....or (akso incorporating some other factors) several hundred thousands to one. How spooky was that?!!!
Now, several quite elementary things spring to mind:
- The variables probably weren't independent. The industry may have been predominant in that area. Lots of Amerian women of a certain type are called Darleen or whatever. People of the same age in the same culture might well drive the same car (chosen from a limited range of possibilities)
- You cannot related variables multiply like that. This is the very nonsense that got Angela Canning wrongly convicted by that fool Meadows.
- More relevant to astrology (I *knew* there was some point I was trying to make) - in what other ways were they *different*.
At the time, I remember talking to a friend and colleague. We both have twins. We share a profession...and even worked in the same office! His partner and mine shared professions two....and we lived close to one another. What does this tell us? Zilch. Unlike me, he liked football, had one eye and lousy taste in music....etc. etc.
Moral: Don't go digging for data.
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Lear (the Unready) Posted Jan 28, 2005
<"Any more Capricorns?">
Yes, one more for the list. (13th January)
Intuitive? Well... I 'knew' I should come back and read this thread today, and hey presto it turns out that for the first time in ages I have something to add to it.
Stereotypically Capricorn in being goat-like and stubborn, too, as most people who know me will gladly testify.
Lear
Lies, damned lies and statistics
azahar Posted Jan 28, 2005
<>
Why measure them indeed. What is the point? I would wonder more about the 'measurer' than the 'measuree' to be honest.
There are so many forms of intelligence and none of them can actually be 'measured' except in pathetic attemps by those who have serious problems simply relating to people and who feel a need to categorize them somehow.
I find that type of person quite tedious myself.
az
Lies, damned lies and statistics
Edward the Bonobo - Gone. Posted Jan 28, 2005
Yeah, but you would say that. Typical Capricorn!
(Jan 12th, me)
Key: Complain about this post
Lies, damned lies and statistics
- 6301: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 26, 2005)
- 6302: Gone again (Jan 26, 2005)
- 6303: GTBacchus (Jan 26, 2005)
- 6304: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6305: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6306: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6307: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6308: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6309: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6310: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6311: azahar (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6312: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6313: Matholwch - Brythonic Tribal Polytheist (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6314: Gone again (Jan 27, 2005)
- 6315: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 28, 2005)
- 6316: Gone again (Jan 28, 2005)
- 6317: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 28, 2005)
- 6318: Lear (the Unready) (Jan 28, 2005)
- 6319: azahar (Jan 28, 2005)
- 6320: Edward the Bonobo - Gone. (Jan 28, 2005)
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