A Conversation for Ask h2g2

Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 481

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

In fairness, AB...if we'd just sent HI down t'pit the moment he left school, he probably wouldn't have been able to acquire the level of expertise that allows him to make the valuable contribution to society that he does. There are reliable statistics, printed in first year economics textbooks that demonstrate that every pound spent on education pays back shedloads in GDP.

(Interesting that higher education cuts are a major focus for the government. They talk about public borrowing being defered taxation. But education cuts are a defered brake on economic growth)

It's unclear which particular post you were refering me back to, btw. Which one of the twenty on the page?


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 482

Ancient Brit

Two names

It clearly says post 244 and gives you the link :- F19585"?thread=7402548&skip=240&show=20#p95622341

My point regarding education is here at post 137 link :- F19585


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 483

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

You are correct. smiley - blush You gave the post number - must've forgotten it by the time the page loaded.

I feel you're basing your idea on a false premise, though...that there's slack all round and cuts should fall even-handedly across all departments. I also feel that by wishing to devolve responsibility to managerial level is missing the political dimension: that we should be able, as a democracy rather than a beuraucracy, determine what we want to spend public money on.

Again...I'm *not* questioning the idea of cuts per se (although I do feel we're missing other elements of the equation: taxation, growth) - I'm just wary of over-simplistic fixes.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 484

Dogster

Otto - in principle I think something like a consultation on budgetary matters can be a good and very democratic thing. I'm thinking of the Porto Alegre Participatory Budget. However, you and 2legs are right that this consultation will just be a silly PR exercise to justify a decision already taken, like all government consultations before it. (Remember the ID cards one where 5000 people wrote in using a form on a website, and the government counted this as just one contribution?)


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 485

Ancient Brit

Any ideas I have Twonames are based on life as I have experienced it since 1927.
I have the bumps and bruises along with the T shirt to show for it.
You are not remotely interested remember :- 277?thread=2776033430" >F16033430?thread=7532647&latest=1


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 486

Ancient Brit

They will do it their way. It's good of them to ask. smiley - smiley
A placebo like pressing the button at a pedestrian crossing.
This is today with a whole new ball game.
You must accept that the public sector is a service.
Unfortunately that service has to be paid for.
When you need help it is ok, but when the one you pay to help you pays for someone to help him, and so on, you kill the goose that lays the golden egg.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 487

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

Which I think backs up what I've just said. The talk is of cutting public services as though fewer services were inherently A Good Thing. There is less talk of what level we want and therefore how we should pay for it. (and, yes, what level we think is affordable).

The current assumption seems to be that the current crisis was the result of over-spending per se. Arguably, though, it resulted from an over-reliance on economic growth to fund a socially decent level of spending. Then banks collapsed, growth noseddived into recession and the government's income stream dried up.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 488

Ancient Brit

The simple problem is that the banks use money to make money. That can not work unless the money is put to useful purpose that gives value added. There is far too much 'funny money' in circulation. This is made easy with electronic transfer. There just isn't enough real money in circulation so, bingo, do it with credit. In real terms every country in the world is bankrupt. It all boils down to national credibility and it is an international problem requiring an international solution. In the mean time as a nation we just have to stand in line and be counted. Displays like we are having around Europe do no good at all.
Manufacturing industry suffered in the 80's. The writing was on the wall then.
Bite the bullet.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 489

Ancient Brit

PS - We need Railwaymen, Steelworkers, Shipbuilders, Miners and Car workers along with the reasearch establishments and industries that serve them. Moreover it is not just their money we need in the form of taxes, it is the products and the added value that those products provide that is needed to generate and develop the nations wealth.
Without that wealth, there is no hope of a healthy and fair for all economy. smiley - cheers


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 490

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

I'm not at all disagreeing that we need a strong manufacturing base. However, we need a *high tech*, high-productivity manufacturing base - we can't compete with cheap, overseas manual labour. Education is the key to that.

(I fear we're running behind. Nowadays China and India aren't just sources of cheap labour. They have their Technorati - in huge numbers and of high quality)


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 491

HonestIago

>>Who is it - remember your space.
< In the real world I'm student at Manchester Uni, doing a highly intellectual subject with a very light workload *giggles at the thought the Government are paying me over 5 grand a year to sit on my backside 5 days a week* >
It's pay back time.<<

I've paid that back, thanks mate. I'm now paying for others to go to Uni.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 492

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

I have a line I sometimes use which might be applicable to your PS, HI:

'If I thought anyone was going to take me seriously I wouldn't have made such an obviously flippant remark.'

smiley - winkeye


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 493

HonestIago

Or "Ornery old men should probably leave now: this really isn't the right place for them."

Bit pathetic of AB to try that shot. Oh well, must suck to be him.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 494

Ancient Brit

Just stay in your little cloister and talk among yourselves. smiley - biggrin
Who is it - You are about to find out that the fruits of your labour have no where to go for a year or two until things get sorted out.
By the way - In the real world I'm an O.A.P, enjoying my hobbies to the best of my capabilities. Giggling at the thought that the Government are paying me well over 5 grand a year to sit on my backside and do bugger all. If you know what I mean. smiley - cheers


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 495

Ancient Brit

PS. Do you think it will come to ration books and British Restaurants ?


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 496

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

Re the idea of managers deciding where cuts should fall...

Today's news? Staffordshire NHS Trust enquiry? Managers severely criticised for pursuing cost saving targets at the expense of service?

See what I mean? Not *quite* so simple.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 497

Ancient Brit

My words - "We need Railwaymen, Steelworkers, Shipbuilders, Miners and Car workers along with the reasearch establishments and industries that serve them."
Your comment - < we need a *high tech*, high-productivity manufacturing base - we can't compete with cheap, overseas manual labour. Education is the key to that. >

'Cheap' is the operative word, in that life is cheap in the developing nations but that's another issue.
You must know that industry has to reduce manpower in order to become highly productive. As far as high tech goes, have you been round a modern steel pant, how do you handle molten metal and red hot materials if it isn't high tech. A lot of the development is done here in the UK but modern plant is supplied to the 'so called' developing nations. Look at a modern shipyard or the latest car/aircraft building plant all are based upon getting the job done with minimum labour and in line with health and safety and other applicable legislation.
The reason we need the basic industries is because they require the basic skills. Ask yourself why there is a shortage of plumbers. What if the kind of money that was thrown at the bankers had been thrown at the basic industries ? Again that's another story.
Above all you need to realise that those developing nations are going forward without a top heavy and unsustainable public sector.
Education is important but experience shows that most jobs can be done without the necessity to stay at school until you are in your 20's.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 498

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

I'm not sure what you're arguing there, AB. That we run our economy as a low education, low wage, third world nation? It's possible. We'd be competitive. But...happy?


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 499

swl

I'm not sure I buy this "Britain can't do manufacturing cheaply enough to compete" argument. Germany is currently bailing out European countries with money earned from manufacturing and exporting. Britain has no British-owned car manufacturing companies of any scale now but Germany, France, Italy and even the bloomin Spanish manage somehow.


Where should public spending cuts fall? (UK centric)

Post 500

Not the monkey - Skreeeeeeeeeeeee

The point is that all those countries modernised their industrial base. Education!


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