A Conversation for Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Peer Review: A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 1

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Entry: Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer - A87784032
Author: Florida Sailor - U235886

Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Here is my latest offering, It is another Flea Market Rescue, and therefore a bit different from my usual faresmiley - biggrin

There is already an Edited Entry at A695450 making this also an update.

There is also an entry in the Flea Market A2936810 adding 'Rescue to the 'Update'.

This Entry spent a couple years in Peer Review, and far longer in the Work-Shop dealing with the long-standing conflict here between 'factual' and 'creative' writing.. Two other versions of the update exist at A3173519 and also A4130137.

I have tried to keep all this in mind while adding my own, independent research on the subject. I hope I have presented an interesting and accurate presentation of the man's life, while respecting the thoughts of those who have gone before me.

Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 2

Dmitri Gheorgheni

Full disclosure: As a kid, I couldn't quite understand the appeal of Buddy Holly, Bill Haley, and the like. 'The day the music died' conjures up pictures for me of Beethoven on his deathbed. But different strokes for different folks. This is just plain interesting. smiley - smiley

A few proofreads:

>>but enjoyed listing<<

I think you menat 'listening'? Though listing would be intriguingly nautical. smiley - whistle

>>wining several prizes<<

'Winning', I think. Again, 'wining' sounds like fun, but maybe not for kids.

Coating Buddy's violin with grease is an old Southern trick. My violin teacher admitted she used soap on the less talented members of her children's orchestra. smiley - whistle

>>Elvis Presley preformed in Lubbock<<

I think he 'performed', though a preformed Elvis conjures up wonderful images. smiley - magic

An odd note: In the television series 'Quantum Leap', time traveller Sam Beckett helps Buddy Holly come up with the lyrics to 'Peggy Sue', after finding him serenading a pig. 'Piggy Sooey' didn't quite cut it. (You don't need to add that. smiley - tongueincheek)


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 3

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Thanks;

When you know what the word is 'supposed' to be it is hard to spot the typo.

>'The day the music died' conjures up pictures for me of Beethoven on his deathbed.

You have heard that when they opened Beethoven's coffin they found a large eraser and a pile of sheet music.

When asked what this was all about, he replied;

'I'm just laying here de-composing'smiley - biggrin

smiley - cheers
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 4

Dmitri Gheorgheni

smiley - snork I'm so old, my junior music teacher told that joke about Mozart. smiley - whistle


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 5

Recumbentman

Lots of good stuff here!

The first blockquote would stand out better in italic perhaps?

>the steel guitar is played laying flat on your lap and all the string are pressed down together by a bar of metal or glass producing chord sounds when the strings are strummed

-- producing chords when the strings are strummed

Actually the steel guitar style was (and is) mostly melodic (as pioneered in Hawaii). The generic name for the style is bottle-necking, deriving from the use of a broken-off bottle neck on a left-hand little finger. Glass and steel replacements for the original provide a more comfortable alternative.

> a cheap guitar, that he had purchased at a pawn shop

-- a cheap guitar from a pawn shop

>Country and Western style he new so well

-- knew

> signed Buddy to a contract, Bob was not included.

-- signed Buddy up. Bob was not included on the contract.

> Buddy recorded about a dozen songs at Decca, only two single records were released at the time, a single with 'Blue Days Black Nights' and 'Love Me' the second was 'Modern Don Juan' and 'You Are My One Desire'.

-- Buddy recorded about a dozen songs at Decca. Only two single records were released at the time: 'Blue Days, Black Nights' backed with 'Love Me', and 'Modern Don Juan' with 'You Are My One Desire'.

>
25 February, 1957 was the day that Buddy, with several other musicians recorded the track that would launch him to stardom

-- omit 'with several other musicians' since they are about to be mentioned anyway.

> the discarded tracks recorded at Decca, they wisely decided

-- semicolon not comma needed here.

> not to peruse their claim on the song

-- pursue

> Nicki would leave leave the group

-- spelling was Niki previously. Leave out one leave.

> and mixing boards multiple track recording is the norm today, in 1957 it was

-- and mixing boards, multiple track recording is the norm today; in 1957 it was

> The resulting sound was so unique that it was used as the principle percussion in the hit song 'Everyday'.

-- so unique is self-contradictory; perhaps 'so fresh'? And it has to be 'principal'.

> in the Harlem section of New York City, in the State of New York, USA, a section of the city that had an almost entirely African-American population

-- in Harlem, a section of New York that had an almost entirely African-American population

> encroaching on their entertainment, after about 3 performances they began

-- encroaching on their entertainment, but after about 3 performances they began

> paradiddle < FOOTNOTE

-- the paradiddle is in fact the normal drum roll, left-left-right-right. It is called the paradiddle specifically in teaching, when it must be practised painfully slowly and then gradually speeded up.

> The rest of the venue included

-- lineup, not venue

> Other popular acts joined;

-- colon, not semicolon

> Buddy was taken back to Lubbock for burial, His widow, Maria. was unable to attend

-- Buddy was taken back to Lubbock for burial. His widow Maria was unable to attend


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 6

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Thank you Recumbentman for your reply


*****************
Actually the steel guitar style was (and is) mostly melodic (as pioneered in Hawaii). The generic name for the style is bottle-necking, deriving from the use of a broken-off bottle neck on a left-hand little finger. Glass and steel replacements for the original provide a more comfortable alternative.
*******************
My mother had a wooden Gibson acoustic guitar, with a raised Hawaiian style bridge and a steel bar with a Bakelite handle for the chords. It was in the early 60's my older brother removed the extra bridge and started learning to play rock on it.smiley - biggrin

On some of these involved side subjects, I try to give only the important basics for this entry and hope another Researcher will be inspired to write a related Entry on the subject itself. I doubt little Buddy was given the broken neck of a beer bottle to play withsmiley - erm

*******************
> signed Buddy to a contract, Bob was not included.

-- signed Buddy up. Bob was not included on the contract.

re-worded slightly
**********************



********
> The resulting sound was so unique that it was used as the principle percussion in the hit song 'Everyday'.

-- so unique is self-contradictory; perhaps 'so fresh'? And it has to be 'principal'.


Went with different, and abandoned 'principal' for 'primary' At first I wanted to say sole, but the bridge with chimes puts the lie to this.
******
-
*****
> paradiddle < FOOTNOTE

-- the paradiddle is in fact the normal drum roll, left-left-right-right. It is called the paradiddle specifically in teaching, when it must be practised painfully slowly and then gradually speeded up.

Reworded the footnote, let me know what you think. In one of the interviews I read, a British drummer talked about JI's use of the 'paradiddle' -'I didn't even know what a paradiddle was', he added. Neither did I so I thought it might make a fun fact, I do not want it to take-over the entry however.smiley - smiley

*******

I think I have added the rest of your comments.

smiley - cheers
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 7

Bluebottle

An impressive Update and <./>Writing-Fleamarket</.> rescue – especially considering you combined 4 different articles about Buddy Holly and added some of your own to create this one. Well done!smiley - ok

A couple of minor suggestions:

signed Buddy up for is studio – his (or possibly 'is if you want to use slang for no apparent reasonsmiley - winkeye)

soiled laundry – I'd probably say 'dirty laundry'. Soiled implies, well, that, erm, someone had, well, soiled themselves. Like a baby in a nappy. I don't want anyone getting the impression that Buddy wasn't toilet trained.

A couple of minor points of trivia (just to let you know, no need to include unless you particularly wanted to).
Did you know that Decca also passed on the Beatles, before they were signed by EMI.
The Discworld novel 'Soul Music' is about a musician called Buddy after Buddy Holly.

You may also wish to consider including some of these links:
A31367649 The Violin Bow
A273115 New Mexico, USA
A16303727 Famous Air Crash Victims - Part 2: Musicians
A378669 How The Beatles Did Not Get Their Name
A378669 How The Beatles Did Not Get Their Name
A30466208 Hank Marvin - Guitar God
(Hank Marvin was in the Shadows and later released an album 'Hank plays Holly')

<BB<


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 8

Recumbentman

That's coming nicely, though these sentences still read awkwardly, as the final clauses are not well attached:

> In October, 1955 Buddy and his long-time partner Bob Montgomery were performing as an opening act at the Fair Park Colosseum in Nashville, Tennessee, USA when a talent Agent named Eddie Crandall was impressed and signed Buddy up for is studio5, Bob was not included in the contract.

> Buddy recorded about a dozen songs at Decca, only two single records were released at the time: 'Blue Days Black Nights' and 'Love Me' the second was 'Modern Don Juan' and 'You Are My One Desire'.

Also, I would omit the footnote on the paradiddle; anyone can look it up if they feel the need. I would leave out the quotes around 'sound' as well, simply

-- They carefully watched how Buddy stroked his guitar, and JI's drumming, including the 'paradiddle' that made their sound so distinctive.


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 9

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Bluebottle;

>An impressive Update and Writing-Fleamarket rescue – especially considering you combined 4 different articles about Buddy Holly and added some of your own to create this one. Well done!

I will not claim to have included all four, although I may have. It is more their spirit I wanted to include.

>A couple of minor suggestions:

>signed Buddy up for is studio – his (or possibly 'is if you want to use slang for no apparent reason )

No, I did not mean to slip into Cockney, the 'H' key just acted upsmiley - smiley

>soiled laundry – I'd probably say 'dirty laundry'. Soiled implies, well, that, erm, someone had, well, soiled themselves. Like a baby in a nappy. I don't want anyone getting the impression that Buddy wasn't toilet trained.

That may be a US/UK thing. I made the change.
Over her we equate soil with dirt, the farmer tills the soil, our clothing becomes soiled - we also use soiled for a dirty diaper, but only because it is so much more polite than the 'other' word. We also dig in the soil of our 'garden' a word reserved for patches of vegetables or flowers, the grassy bits are just lawns.


>A couple of minor points of trivia (just to let you know, no need to include unless you particularly wanted to). Did you know that Decca also passed on the Beatles, before they were signed by EMI. The Discworld novel 'Soul Music' is about a musician called Buddy after Buddy Holly.

As these are a bit after the fact I think I'll let then slide, but thanks for the thoughts.

>You may also wish to consider including some of these links:
A31367649 The Violin Bow
A273115 New Mexico, USA

A16303727 Famous Air Crash Victims - Part 2: Musicians

A378669 How The Beatles Did Not Get Their Name
A378669 How The Beatles Did Not Get Their Name
A30466208 Hank Marvin - Guitar God
(Hank Marvin was in the Shadows and later released an album 'Hank plays Holly')

I couldn't think of a good way to work Hank into the text without leaving a hundred glaring omissions. I did place him on the side-bar. The rest have been added, thanks.
<BB<


Recumbentman;

> In October, 1955 Buddy and his long-time partner Bob Montgomery were performing as an opening act at the Fair Park Colosseum in Nashville, Tennessee, USA when a talent Agent named Eddie Crandall was impressed and signed Buddy up for is studio5, Bob was not included in the contract.

Restructured

> Buddy recorded about a dozen songs at Decca, only two single records were released at the time: 'Blue Days Black Nights' and 'Love Me' the second was 'Modern Don Juan' and 'You Are My One Desire'.

Fixed

>Also, I would omit the footnote on the paradiddle; anyone can look it up if they feel the need. I would leave out the quotes around 'sound' as well, simply

>-- They carefully watched how Buddy stroked his guitar, and JI's drumming, including the 'paradiddle' that made their sound so distinctive.

I actually walked up the Alley to talk with the drummer of a local band who practice in a garage a few doors from here.

I found that the paradiddle is a drum 'rudiment', one of the practice strokes for learning to play the drums. He even demonstrated reciting 'par-a-di-dle as he played.

There about 40 'rudiments' that are used as exercises for handling the sticks. The paradiddle is a 'LR,LL-RL,RR' progression.

If I am getting overly obsessed with this one small detail, it is only because it caught my attention in doing the research and looking at other sights distracted me for a few hours at the time (much more so now) If the funny word catches the interest of a reader I want to provide a brief explanation, either in a footnote or the text itself. If the explanation goes I will remove the term itself also, but I would rather not.

I am getting the impression that while the early rock performers could write melody, harmony and bass, they did not know how to compose percussion, so the drummer just started using an appropriate drill to complete the sound.

I do not know how deep your own knowledge of the area is, forgive me, I would like to know so I can properly weight you comments here.smiley - smiley

The reason I put sound in quotes is that, as I recall, a band' 'sound' was its unique style of music - the bands sound was the noise it madesmiley - erm

If this is no longer understood it might be best to drop the quotes.

I may be off for a few days, if I don't reply before Monday it is not that I am ignoring you, (no inter-web in 1837smiley - biggrin)

Thanks
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 10

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Did another read through and changed a few words here and there.

I think I have addressed the comments in the PR thread.

smiley - cheers
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 11

Recumbentman

Looking good. Still on the paradiddle: it is indeed a rudiment of percussion training, but not (as you imply) one that is merely used as an exercise and later discarded; it is in fact the correct stroke to use for a drum roll. Few early rock drummers developed it; it doesn't come naturally. It brings a certain formality, a military bearing, into the sound.

So I suspect that Buddy's drummer had had some lessons. That's all. I am a string teacher, but my son once learned percussion from an orchestral player.


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 12

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

It is interesting that the 'Paradiddle' is taking so much of our time, I am sure only a few readers will put as much attention on this as we are, but it is for those few that make this so important!

My Father and Grandfather were both professional musicians, not that either did it full-time, only that they were paid for playing as they were members of the Union. I can remember many an argument or discussion at the time about how legitimate 'Rock' was from a musical point of view.

I did not mean to imply that 'Rudiments' are of no use after learning the motions. I am not sure about how the Percussion parts of a piece of music are usually written, or how much is left to the drummer to interpret themselves.

>So I suspect that Buddy's drummer had had some lessons. That's all. I am a string teacher, but my son once learned percussion from an orchestral player.

Yes! that is exactly the point I have been trying to state in my awkward words. I did not mean to question your knowledge, only to understand your perspectivesmiley - biggrin I have re-worded the footnote and will be happy to see your reaction.

Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 13

Recumbentman

I really am sorry to be such a pain over such a small technical matter, but I'm still uncomfortable.

'Control the beats' implies, to me, something to do with keeping steady tempo, or varying it. This is not the case with the drum roll; it can be fast or slow, and that has to be controlled, but this is not something that is written in the score. All the percussionist is given is a trill mark (tr with a wavy line emanating from the r), and that means do a roll. The conductor may intervene and say 'Not a fast roll there, do a slower one' but generally (99.99%) it is left to the drummer. A roll is a roll is a roll.

So yes, in practising your paradiddle you are learning to control the strokes, but no, not the beats. In all music, including orchestral and military, the word 'beat' refers primarily to the four-in-a-bar (or whatever) and not -- ever -- to the speed of a trill or roll.

If I were writing the footnote it would be something like

< FOOTNOTE > The formal drum roll, used in orchestras and military bands: many repetitions of right-right-left-left, smooth and fast. Takes some time and application, getting it right. < /FOOTNOTE >


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 14

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

>Recumbentman
>I really am sorry to be such a pain over such a small technical matter, but I'm still uncomfortable.

Please do not feel badly about your comments here, I want this entry to be as good as possible and I value your inputsmiley - smiley

>'Control the beats' implies, to me, something to do with keeping steady tempo, or varying it. This is not the case with the drum roll; it can be fast or slow,...

Changed to 'control the drum sticks', Personally I have always thought the main purpose of percussion was to control the beat of the music, but I am willing to be corrected.

>If I were writing the footnote it would be something like

< FOOTNOTE > The formal drum roll, used in orchestras and military bands: many repetitions of right-right-left-left, smooth and fast. Takes some time and application, getting it right. < /FOOTNOTE>

Here lies part of the problem, as I read it the Paradiddle is;

R,L,RR _ L,R,LL
being a single strike with one hand, followed by a single strike from the other hand, and completed by a double strike from the first hand.

What I really want to express in my footnote is that a lot more knowledge of the rules of classical music was used by the pioneers of 'Rock ' n ' Roll' than most people today realize.


Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 15

Recumbentman

Wow, I owe you apologies. You are quite right and I am quite wrong. My memory failed me.

Yes, the paradiddle is one of many exercises, and not the standard roll. Your footnote was entirely correct.

I doubt that many of the early rock drummers had taken lessons, though. Perhaps that's what made the Crickets different. It's a sensitive area, the phenomenon of white kids moving into the territory of black music, and bringing in their own baggage.


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 16

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

>Wow, I owe you apologies...

That's smiley - ok Recumbentman, that's the difference of having to research each point instead of working from memory, I have done the same sort of thing myself from time to time.smiley - shrug

>Your footnote was entirely correct.

>I doubt that many of the early rock drummers had taken lessons, though. Perhaps that's what made the Crickets different.

Let us look at my footnote as it stands, I think it has been improvedsmiley - smiley

>> 7 A drummers 'rudiment', or exercise, for learning how to control the drum sticks. Several early 'Rock' musicians had training in classical music that enhanced their new style. <<

I used the term 'several' to specifically avoid 'many' or 'most'. I read this as meaning at least a few, but probably more.

I use the word 'classical' and that may be misleading. I intended to imply the proper rules of music, as to key, chord progressions and phrasing, rather than the style of Beethoven or Brahms.

I do not know how much music was generally taught in Europe in the 1950's. In the US - Band, Orchestra and Chorus were all offered as elective - accredited courses in both Middle and High School (ages 11 through 18). Music theory was a large part of the lessons, as well as performing.

Many of the early US Rockers had studied music in school and brought their training into in the new style of music. I can remember many a heated discussion between my brother, father and grandfather on this very subject. My brother insisting that all the formal rules were being followed, while the adults insisted that it was just a corruption of the music they loved. I was too young to do more than listen and take notesmiley - biggrin

I remember hearing some rock groups talking about how they developed their songs. 'we just sit around and play or hum our thoughts, as we cannot write, or even read musical notes'

This is not meant to be disparaging, I have meet some great entertainers who do everything by 'ear' and others who have studied for years and remain uninspiring.

>It's a sensitive area, the phenomenon of white kids moving into the territory of black music, and bringing in their own baggage.

You are quite correct, I don't even want to get close to that smiley - canofworms. The most important point is that we can have no idea how much training and mentioning was going on behind the scenes in the Black communities, however I expect it was considerable.

smiley - cheers
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 17

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

I have just been looking at a few links that could be added here;

There is an interview with his widow; Maria Elana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJssvXI_QwY

and a four point account of his Last Day, which gets rather more graphic than I care for. I post the links here in a message If the other researchers think they are of value I will add them to the side-bar, otherwise I will just let them be. I do not want the entry to be overwhelmed by the tragedy.

1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFdWrwbxNms

2 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppKIfnUu0-U

3 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liwt0Qf6pHo

4 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ_UFIZiUmw

smiley - cheers
Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 18

Recumbentman

>I intended to imply the proper rules of music, as to key, chord progressions and phrasing,

>'we just sit around and play or hum our thoughts, as we cannot write, or even read musical notes'

More cans o' worms. If you read my Entry on The Three Ages of Music A1921114 you will appreciate that I oppose this line of thinking. Not suggesting any change to the Buddy Entry, just carrying on the conversation.

Popular music is a vernacular art. Classical training is a hindrance, not a help. The 'proper chord progressions and phrasing' are learned by ear.

They have to be, 'even' in classical music. Just as proportion and colour balance in painting are learned by eye.

smiley - 2cents


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 19

Florida Sailor -Na Jo Po Mo!!

Thanks Recumbentman;

I have been reading through your 3 Ages of Music entry, very good. It reminded me of the Appalachian Music Program. It was a WPA project back in the 1930's. People were sent up into the hills to record the local music that had been passed down orally for several generations. While most thought that preserving the music was a wonderful thing, there were those who stated that when you record, or write down music, it ceases to be a living thing. smiley - canofworms This could give a whole new meaning to 'The day the music died'smiley - biggrin

smiley - popcorn

Back to the entry - I have changed 'Classical' to 'Formal' in the footnote and tidied up a few words here and there.

Let me know what you think.

Fsmiley - dolphinS


A87784032 - Update Buddy Holly - Singer, Songwriter and Entertainer

Post 20

h2g2 Guide Editors

Hello Florida Sailor smiley - smiley

We think this is ready now. Could you just confirm that your article A87784032 requires pasting over the original Edited Entry A695450? Or if there's something else, like this is in addition to the Edited Entry, could you spell out the changes? smiley - cheers

Thank you,

h2g2 Editors


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