A Conversation for CELTIC DEVON

Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 1

YoungWoodwolf

Frist of all hello, am new to this page.
I've been reading all the postings about our celtic roots and I must say its all very interesting, but not surprising.
But what can we call ourselves from Devon, Celts or Saxon?


Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 2

Plymouth Exile

YoungWoodwolf,

Welcome to the forum.

What you call yourself depends very much on which aspects of your heritage you feel are most important. Genetic surveys and analyses (by Capelli et al, Sykes, and Oppenheimer) have all clearly shown that Devonian ancestry (as with Cornish ancestry) is of the order of 78% derived from the original post-Ice Age settlers from Northern Iberia. These early settlers were not Celts as such, as the Celtic family of languages did not exist at this time (about 10,000BC). The Brythonic Celtic language probably came to South West Britain with later (smaller scale) migrations from the same region of Iberia. The same is true for all of the people who are currently considered to be Celts, whether or not they still speak a Celtic language. The term ‘predominantly indigenous British’ would certainly apply to Devonians.

The English language (derived from Anglo-Saxon, i.e. Old English) came late to Devon, and there are good historical indications that the Brythonic tongue survived as a minority language long after the Norman Conquest swept away the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. It is thought (from the genetic record) that only a tiny percentage of Devon’s population derived their ancestry from 5th/6th century Anglo-Saxon invaders/settlers. However, as with most of the descendents of the indigenous (post-Ice Age) Britons, the current language is now overwhelmingly English. Therefore if the term ‘Saxon’ is meant as an ancestral descriptor, it is not particularly appropriate to Devonians on the whole.


Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 3

tivvyboy

Young Woodwolf, welcome.

I agree with Plymouth Exile, but also the best descriptor for Devonian is simply that, Devonian.


Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 4

Ozzie Exile

The DNA project "the peoples of the British Isles", has already uncovered some interesting information.

The following site sheds a little more information.

http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british

My interest here is in the order in which the distinctions emerged .

1 Orkney. (I.e. the orkadians are the most obvious distinct genetic group in Britain)
2. Wales
3. Devon and Cornwall
4. The Welsh borders (from Wales)
5. The northern Irish forming a group with north-western Scotland...

From a Devonian perspective, it is interesting how high the Devon/Cornwall group was identified. After Orkney and Wales, but before any other grouping.

Some might cynically suggest that this simply indicates "inbreeding", but in fact it more properly confirms that the far south-western peninsular has indeed retained a unique genetic identity. This is unlike most of southern & central England, which remains a uniform group from our neighbours in Dorset to the midlands, south-east and beyond.

Clearly what happened in Devon and Cornwall is in a funded entail way "different".

The study does not indicate where this difference originates - and properly doesn't judge differences in value terms. However what it does dismiss is the myth of the ethnic cleansing of Devon's celtic population.


Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 5

Ozzie Exile

"Funded entail" should read "fundamental". Don't you love "auto-correct".


Celts or Saxon, what are we?

Post 6

Plymouth Exile

Although the Bodmer led study basically agrees with the earlier Oppenheimer and Sykes studies in terms of the geographic clusters of genetic variation within Britain, it does not identify when the various post-Ice-Age migrations occurred.

The Oppenheimer study does tackle this aspect, and it's main conclusion is that although the migrations from the Germanic regions were substantial in numbers (though still a minority in all regions), the majority of such migrations occurred in the pre-Roman era, i.e. long before the 5th/6th century Anglo-Saxon incursions.

In fact both Oppenheimer and Sykes conclude (using different methods) that the Anglo-Saxon invasion/settlement contributed no more than 5% to the ancestry of the current English population overall, and even less in Devon and Cornwall, where the greatest influx (estimated at 78%) originated from Northern Iberia soon after the end of the last Ice-Age. This ties the Devon/Cornwall region firmly in with the other 'Celtic' regions of Britain and Ireland.


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