A Conversation for Fan Fiction - a User's Guide

As a point of contention

Post 1

strongplacebo

There's a lot in this article I find to be inaccurate. Be prepared: I have a lot to say smiley - smiley

A forewarning: I am a slasher. Yes, I am. Run! Hide from the sexual deviant!

First sentence, perfect, no disagreement here. Kinda went downhill though.

"an excuse to write torrid sex scenes featuring the unlikliest of pairings"

I respectfully disagree. NOT ALL FAN FICTION IS EXPLICIT. Even slash (which you seem to be mixed up on). Someone has already mentioned pre-slash (which is one of my personal favourite sub-genres) but even in a slashfic where the pairing is clearly defined, the characters don't have to have sex. Kissing is sexy. And isn't it better to choose for yourself what happened rather than have to go along with what the writer thinks anyway? Fan fic writers KNOW this. They know their readers (they're all readers themselves). We know what's happening, we don't need to be treated like idiots.

Even if the sex is mentioned, it isn't always described in intimate detail (obviously it is sometimes as you’ve mentioned, but you ignore everything else which isn’t as tacky as the few you’ve been so unfortunate as to come across)

I make no comment on the choices of "most prominent fandoms" purely because it's so obviously out of date. ff.net though? Really, you couldn't have found a better example of an archive? Since so many genres are under-represented and some not at all (since RPS got ousted). Also, just 'cause about 99% of what's on there isn't worth the bandwidth it took to load the page.

Most of my problems with the article lie with the definitions. So wrong, so many.

"intimate, graphic or outright pornographic relations between characters of opposite gender"

I think you do fan fiction a disservice by always leaning towards the sexual, even in the definition of het. Fan fiction is full of stories without sex. Especially in the case of the more socially acceptable hetfics, where maybe burning USTs never become RSTs, or blushing sosecret! first kisses are written by 12-year-old girls who have never been kissed. OMG they used TONGUE! That's so DIRTY!

"Mary Sues … are consequently popular for 'badfics'"

I am confused by this. It's my general belief that people don't write Mary Sues on purpose, and why would anyone want to write a badfic? Strangly unnecessary addendum to the Mary Sue definition.

"Soft core fan fiction (slash or gen) without pretence at story."

Um, I think the point of PWPs are that they're HARDCORE. If they're not, wouldn't they come under the header "fluff"?

"RP (Real People) Fic - A form of fanfic in which the author writes using real people - usually actors (actorfic) or other celebrities - as characters. Often considered a grotesque infringment of personal dignity, especially in the case of RPS (Real People Slash) or Actorslash, and an open invitation for the featured real people to sue the author for defamation of character."

This is where I have my biggest problem. Problems, really, since I have something to say about pretty much everything you've written here. I in no way consider RPS to be a "grotesque infringement of personal dignity". I think many fanfics can give the characters more dignity than they are afforded by their publicists, or sometimes even themselves. I'm going to use the example here of Orlando Bloom. General conception here (one I mostly share) is that he's pretty-but-dim. Fanfic authors make me see past that. They pull out the parts of him that aren't seen through his "um, you know, like" bumbling interviews, like the adoration he has for his father who did great things and died when Orlando was four. Or the strength and courage it took for him to walk out of hospital two weeks after breaking his back and being told he'd be paralysed for life. I think we give him more dignity than the average person on the street.

Or do you mean writing about him sodomising (or being sodomised by) his best mates? I think a few million gay men might not think that undignified. But I digress to your seeming homophobia. We're talking about sex. Sex is not dignified. Sex is grunting and sweating and on your back (or not) and weird noises and bizarres facial expressions and sticky, messy bodily fluids. Surely all sex is undignified, whether we're writing about it or not.

I'll come back to the "infringment" part later.

"especially in the case of RPS (Real People Slash)"

What the hell? Because it's two blokes? It happens; get over it. Why is it more offensive to read about two guys than a guy and a girl? I don’t see that at all.

"an open invitation for the featured real people to sue the author for defamation of character"

You're actually quite wrong about this. Because all RPS writers are aware that they're writing about real people, they include disclaimers, almost without exception. Disclaimers which say "this isn't real, I don't know these people, this never happened". This actually means that the law favours them over FPSers. Whatever you may say, you are always ALWAYS infringing on copyright. You can NEVER get around that. And while I've heard of FPSers getting Cease & Desist notices, I've never heard the same about RPS (am I wrong here?)

As another note, most stars of RPS fics are aware that they're being written about. They don't seem to care much. Compare Anne Rice and her ego-inflated views on fanfic to Elijah Wood, Serena McKellan and Karl Urban stating EXPLICITLY that they do not object to people writing fiction about them. I know the people in my fandom (which you may or may not have guessed by now is Lotrips) know about it, since they talk quite frequently on talk shows, at conventions etc about people giving them hardcore photo manipulations of themselves and other actors (something which I do think is crossing the line. They know it's there - they probably don't wanna see that stuff).

As far as "infringment" goes, I respectfully disagree. Actors are always acting; whenever we see them they are playing the part. Example (again from my fandom; it's what I know best) of Elijah Wood. Elijah Wood, when Lord of the Rings came out, was marketed as "child star makes good". His story in New Zealand was a coming-of-age, emphasised by magazine articles like this one (http://www.premiere.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=1378&page_number=9) in Premiere. Poor baby Elijah is in New Zealand, far from his home, with scary English guys who have this weird thing called "taking the piss" and Elijah-baby doesn't know what to make of them. And you think it's a coincidence that there are so many innocent!virgin!Elijah fics out there? I personally don't believe a word of it. I think he was out there getting plastered every weekend and sleeping with a different bird every night, like any other normal 19-year-old guy, but the "character" that we associate with Elijah Wood wouldn't do that.

When RPSers write, they write about the character the actor has chosen to portray themselves as. I don't see it as any different to writing about Frodo and Sam having contortionist monkey sex on the slopes of Mount Doom while lava flows down around them and eagles watch from a distance (except it's probably more realistic). The actors have given us permission to see the characters they present, but not themselves, and that's who we play with.

Moving on...

"Fan fiction incorporating intimate/sexual encounters between characters who do not have, and never have had, such a relationship in the canon material."

This is not a definition of slash, kthnx. It's a definition of non-canon fic of any variety. If I write about Legolas and Arwen getting it on, it's a fic about sexual encouters between characters who do not have, and never have had, such a relationship in the canon material, but it ain't slash (Arwen, she's got boobs).

Also, slash isn't exclusively by women. Some gay guys write it too.

Again, the description of "intimate/sexual encounters" and your claim that most slash is PWP severely undersells the genre. While it tells me you haven't dabbled much yourself, you could be putting others off, which is most ungenerous of you, sir.

As others have pointed out, your definition of gen fic is so wholly wrong, I can't even quote bits. It's just all wrong. Gen, while indeed short for "general" means NO PAIRING AT ALL. I think it only confuses you because you have your definitions mixed up somewhat.

"the purely sexual connotations of slash"

Shut up. No, really, it's annoying now. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SEX. We want to see men forming a relationship and being intimate without women, usually the "sensitive" ones, being there to force them into it. It's our way of kidding ourselves that guys can be involved without us having to bludgeon them into it.

"fan fiction sex scenes are almost always excruciatingly painful to read...rarely either erotic or moving"

Again, I respectfully disagree. While it's true that a lot of fics are, as I once saw it aptly described, the author living out her own fantasies on paper, others are much more than that. Sex can tell you a lot about the relationship. People have sex all the time in real life, so if we want to write stories which are accurate and realistic, sex has to be a part of that.

Lastly, "Or indeed a/b/c/d/e/f/g/hatstand; slash fiction is not noted for its reserve."

Hahahahaha, this made me laugh only because I read a fic the other day which featured seven men all at the same time (physically impossible, I’m sure) and if the author could have got the hatstand in, I’m sure she would have. (See, I know not all slash is good!)


As a point of contention

Post 2

Sho - employed again!

well that was a lot to read.

But I won't bother - becuause if you consider that RPS is ok to write we very obviously are coming from such totally different opinions on that.


As a point of contention

Post 3

strongplacebo

Yes, I realise it is rather tl; dr. Still, I read the original article despite the fact that it was written by someone whose views are so wildly different to my own, and some of his statements were bigoted and offensive.

But yes, I do think RPS is okay to read and write. I've read arguements for and against, but I still don't see that it's groteesque or evil. Some people don't see a problem with fictional 'cest fics, or chan (something not even mentioned in the original article - I feel sorry for the poor person who clicks on that link without having been forewarned). Different strokes for different folks.

Nice to know you think that one opinion invalidates everything else I say though.


As a point of contention

Post 4

AgProv2

There is also what could be described as the VIZ-magazine approach to RPS: when ascribing fictional actions of any kind to real people, make it so ludicrously, unbelieivably, over the top that nobody in their right mind would ever believe it. This performs three useful functions:

i) the result is often gloriously bad-taste funny, but impossible to hang a libel action on because:-

ii) A crucial part of a libel case is establishing that the plaintiff's reputation has been seriously damaged by the alleged libel - this involves demonstrating that people have taken the alleged libel seriously and beleived in its content, with consequent damage to the libelee's personal or professional reputation.

iii) The essential untruth of the allegation also has to be proven in court - if it is so ridiculuous or surreal as to be utterly improbable, or if the defendant has in as many words stated it is untrue, the case fails

And after the Jason Donavan case, many savvy celebs would weigh up the advantages of suing against the drawbacks of a long expensive court case, during which newspapers may freely report the facts of the alleged libel and thus bring it to the attention of a lot more people than read the original copy of VIZ, as well as demonstrating that the celeb is an egotistical monster with no sense of humour who cannot take a good-natured laugh at themselves.

Jason Donovan won his court case against a magazine that erroneously labelled him gay: while the magazine apologised for the untruth, the legal costs and damages caused it to go bust, a fact which put its staff out of work and enraged a loyal readership many of whom had paid advance subscriptions for copies they now would not receive with little chance of a refund. It also earned him a reputation for being homophobic - people asked why being mistakenly labelled as gay should be a cause for offence and a libel action (well, he is Australian..) as well as his being thought of as priggish and humourless.

A good PR like Max Clifford might well advise - "no, leave it, let it go, do not respond" rather than support an action, quoting more-or-less these points.

So how would it look if a B-list actor sued a penniless fanfiction writer over their depiction in a fiction only a few hundred people are likely to see? The legal precedent here is McDomnalds taking on two activists for making anti-McDonalds statements in their literature: the case dragged on for five years, McD will not be able to recoup a fraction of their court costs, let alone damages, from two pennless and bankrupt activists; facts came out in court over and above the alleged libel that did not make McD's look good; and it was seen as a mega-corporation trying to bludgeon dissent into silence.

So - no, I doubt any RP fanfic is going to get sued any time soon...


Famous last words

Post 5

AgProv2

And I have found myself suckered into and writing an RP fanfic (no sex, a couple of denials and a bath-house in San Francisco).

Quite a lot of the protaginists, with the eception of Brian Jones, Karen Carpenter and Mama Cass are still alive and capable of sueing, though.... bloody good fun to write!

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7542596/5/All_the_best_tunes


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