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|   | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by Runner
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| | Post: 101
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And "knowing Christ" isn't what's important, even for Christians. It's "not being bigoted but treating all of humanity with respect, regardless" that's important.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by Researcher Eagle 1
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| | Post: 102
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I don't feel that I've been brainwashed. Go to post 41 for why I don't think that, or go to my space to the more recent of the two conversations for details.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by ThEntity
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| | Post: 103
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RE: post 100
The Crusades were perpetrated by misguided Christians, assuming they were Christians at all. Many of them were doing it for the money, not for Christ.
Appealing to the Bible as my final authority is not at all moronic (and I'm not a Mormon). I have discussed this at length in another thread which I don't have a link to right now... I'll get back to you.
Man is fallen. God is perfect.
God makes me right. I don't mean that he makes me always right, I mean that I am sharing his Word. No, I don't feel brainwashed. If I did, do you think I would believe? Perhaps I should ask you whether you ever feel enslaved to sin, whether you do not do what you know is right, but instead do what you know to be wrong, because you have no power for good?
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by  Ste
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| | Post: 104
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If you were brainwashed do you think you'd know you were brainwashed? 
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by ThEntity
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 105
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RE: post 101
How is it that you know what is important for me, or Christians in general? Your halfway answer of respect will not save you or anyone else. Besides, can you fulfill even that demand perfectly?
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by ThEntity
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 106
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RE: post 104
No, and I think that fact reflects more on the person who asked the question, not me, eh?...
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by ThEntity
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 107
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The other thread I referred to is here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F27390?thread=190977
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 6, 2002 by Alec Trician
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| | Post: 108
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i would ask ste that same question...how do you know you haven't been brainwashed by all the evolutionary theories and the so-called 'evidence'
i think that atheism is more of a 'religion' than Christianity, requiring a huge leap of faith.
alec.
re. the Crusades:
misguided they may have been, but that was the state of the whole Church in those times. And they were doing it because they believed in it, certainly not for money (those who profited, i.e. the actual organisation of the Church, didn't get its hands dirty.) An example is the Children's Crusade, where many little 'uns went off to fight for their religion, and were of course slain without trace. They were definately not in it for profit.
It seems a very convenient excuse to say 'They weren't Christians'. But they were, if they are to be measured by the average standards of the time (not judged by today's, which of course should never be done when discussing history). It's just that your Church has evolved.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Ste
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 110
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It was a joke
I would use a different word rather than "brainwashed". In your question, replace "brainwashed" with "convinced beyond all doubt" and replace "so called 'evidence'" with "multidisciplinary, convergent lines of over a century and a half of solid evidence" and you would probably get an answer. But that's just an opinion isn't it?
I think that anyone thinking that atheism is a religion has a good point, I'd tentatively agree to that, but it requires a leap of logic rather than faith. Any faith placed anywhere is in other people' humanity.
Ste
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Hoovooloo
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| | Post: 111
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Atheism is not a religion.
Religions are characterised by faith.
Atheism is characterised by a rejection of faith.
People who characterise atheism as another religion betray themselves as narrow-minded religious people who can't see beyond their deeply ingrained mindset and conceive of other people being different from themselves, actually thinking in a completely different way.
Atheism and religion are not two sides of the same coin. Different religions are two sides of the same coin. Atheism is the recognition that currency and coinage are arbitrary concepts invented by man to deal with our temporary scarcity of resources.
What's scarce now is intelligence and reason. The currency we use to replace it is religion. Not everyone chooses to play along with this game.
H.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by TheMelvin
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| | Post: 112
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Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Crusades were first undertaken because Christians were not able to pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Runner
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 113
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It's no good pointing at Crusaders or anyone else and say they weren't true Christians. What they did WAS in Christ's name, whether they were paid for it or not. And enough Popes/clergy have been dodgy as well. Pope Pius XII all but started the 2ndWW by selling out the Catholic Party in Germany to the Nazis (because he wanted to centralise Catholic power in the Vatican), not to mention allowed millions to die in concentration camps without even saying a word, despite controlling the will of millions of people (source: Hitler's Pope, by J. Cornwell (a Catholic)).
I agree completely that man is fallible. But the only evidence I have for the existance of a God is second hand reports from man. Personally, between believing in an all powerful deity or deities that control the fate of man for reasons unknown, OR believing in man's vivid imagination and the desire to find meaning in this world, I'd rather go for the latter.
The question about me being brainwashed by evolution theory etc. is a valid question. My answer is this; evolution theory presents itself as exactly that - a theory. The theory has been updated since Darwin to take into account further analysis and debate, and indeed, there is more than one evolution theory knocking around (e.g. the aquatic ape theory). Evolution theory has been subjected to review and criticism by scientists and others, with the aim of finding the truth - it's proponants welcome criticism, as intelligent debate sparks deeper analysis which furthers the accuracy of the theory. As I am led to believe, this is common with most scientific research and is known as the scientific method (correct me if I'm wrong). [I don't pretend to understand all of evolution theory, and there's parts of it that I don't necessarily believe in. But just because I can't explain it, or where humanity comes from, or what the meaning of life is (42), doesn't mean I have to invent an explanation, or believe in one at all.]
This differs from theology which essentially does not change, and is not subject to review. Anyone who goes up against the accepted wisdom is trashed in some way (in times past put to the sword by some barbaric means). And who determines what the accepted wisdom is? The clery; the political power of the religion, the folks with most to lose. The only exception to this as I understand it is Buddaism, which has as a central tenet a necessity to question everything.
I am no expert in anthropology or sociology (I can't even spell 'em right!), but I find the human need to create god(s) more compelling than the other way round.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Runner
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 114
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Re post 105: "How is it that you know what is important for me, or Christians in general? Your halfway answer of respect will not save you or anyone else. Besides, can you fulfill even that demand perfectly?"
which was in reply to post 101: "And "knowing Christ" isn't what's important, even for Christians. It's "not being bigoted but treating all of humanity with respect, regardless" that's important."
I agree that I'm in no position to say definitively what's important for everyone. But if I'm not, then neither are you, so saying "Knowing Christ is what's important" is as meaningless as my rebuttal.
And secondly, what do you mean by 'save'? Do you mean 'save me from the bigoted elitists who think that a belief-set entitles them to inflict their will on others'?
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Kaz
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 115
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It makes a change, I met a bigoted, small-minded druid last night!
He got very upset, when I said that I believed I was Pagan, not Druid afterall, and couldn't give it up. I told him I truely hadn't found out after a few years reasearch, exactly what the difference was between wiccan, druidry and paganism. Which was why I was now calling myself a Pagan.
He said that Druids like to do ritual during the day, wiccans at night, if you upset a wiccan they will blank you, but druid will try to understand you
There was more, but you get the idea, I shall say to him next month, that people have too many bigoted ways of defining pagan subgroups, which is why I'm happy the way I am!
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My answer to being brainwashed. Are you Catholic?, are you Protestant?, are you Mormon? Etc. They all believe they are right and their religion is true and they are going to heaven. Why? Because they have been brainwashed by their parents to believe that. I don't believe in hell. People get saved as they call it. Not because they love God but because they are frightened they will go to the very hot place called hell if they don't. I don't believe there is a God of love would be sadistic enough to toast souls for eternity. I have met a lot of lovely people who are not Christian. I have also met nice people who are Christian. I have also met people who are Christian and have been really nasty people. I have not had a bad turn done on me by my non-Christian friends who seem to be very level-headed people. I have had bad turns done on me by Christian people who seem to be very mixed up. They think everything they do, they do it for God. It seems they can't think for themselves, they need God to do it for them.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 7, 2002 by Researcher Eagle 1
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 117
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Semaj,
Just thought I'd point out that I became a Christian at 20 years old and my parents are both basically Agnostic.
Good for anyone who has been allowed to select their own path, whatever it is. I wouldn't say all religions are brainwashing, since it is natural in a survivalist sort of way to want to be the only one in the right. However, there is room for open-mindedness even in the religions which say this (after all, it's what you personally believe so what does it matter to anyone else? or their beliefs to you?)- brainwashing would be someone blindly brought up (by parents or their community, if it is overwhelmingly one-sided there's not much chance of their being different) to believe what is 'right' without ever questioning the authority of those who teach them, examining their beliefs closely or even listening to alternative views. However I can't blame them personally for this, but the conditions that made them that way.
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 8, 2002 by em's
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 119
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Dumb all over yes we are, dumb all over near or far, dumb all over black or white us religious fanatics have not got it right. Saying we all know the story, but dont we make the details sound real gory. So what if they dont like what we got in our book over here does that make em bad ? No but instead we revenge an deploy burn an destroy, did our god say this is the way ? No! is it meant to be this way No! so you see if this carry's on soon they wont be no street for you joggers to jog on our doggys to dog on one day it will be all gone.
do i believe in god ? well lets just say i hope we all go to a better place!!!!!
| | Subject: I'm gonna raise a mass theological debate here: God; fact, or fiction
Posted Aug 8, 2002 by Chicken
This is a reply to this Posting.
| | Post: 120
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My friend and I came up with this little theory, it mainly applies to people who don't beleive in God and people who are so stuck to their religion that they have no other life to live, no disrespect is to be caused by the follwing I am just posting a message that I have some beliefs in I do respect other peoples religions and cultures and I hope no one gets mad at this:
'The bible is a story book, made up by old men who didnt know what else to do, why should we live by a book of stories? Why should we be told by people in churches what is right and what is wrong? The whoel idea that God created us and the earth in 7 days is highly unlikely and most scietific evidence proves otherwise. I am fed up of hearing "you should live by the 10 commandments" "sin this sin that".
We suggest you pick your own pen and write your own story as you live it!'
NO disrespect what so ever to those who believe in God and the Bible this is just my point of view which I am entitled to as a human being!
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