 | | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Oct 31, 2008 by minorvogonpoet
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  | | I agree that this is a good time to consider whether capitalism is dead  but this article needs to do a great deal more in order to convince people.
You would need to argue:
* What evidence there is that capitalism is dead, as opposed to just in need of reform;
* what Marx actually advocated {people tend to talk about Marxism without really knowing what it is);
*what syndicalism is and how it would work in a society where a company can just get up and move to Thailand or Taiwan;
* are there other alternatives? Personally, I favour environmentalism - a recognition that we have to live within the resources that the earth provides. 
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| | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Oct 31, 2008 by LL Waz
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| | Got to say I think unions have a place in society, as part of the balancing of power, but their narrow focus on only their members' interests has left me very wary of them (in this century and in the developed West). They've achieved some real improvements in society in the past but in more recent decades have added horrendous confusion and hidden costs to the public sector. This is talking from my own narrow UK perspective and general ignorance of economics.
In practice I'm not sure better results come from 'our group' focused interest or from 'myself' focused interest.
Personal reaction aside, I can only review this from the writing perspective. And in the context of the Alternative Writing Workshop I'd say that the entry needs to aim at provoking more. Outside a debating arena like h2g2's Forum, my experience is that to promote discussion articles need to provoke to rouse sufficient reaction to make people sign on and post.
Waz
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| | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Oct 31, 2008 by  Dmitri Gheorgheni
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| | I think unions get a bad rep. Without them, where do workers get protection? Not from paternalism, which is only there when management is feeling generous.
I would like to see this interesting essay get expanded. With examples. Great topic.
A bit more about what Marx and Engels *really* said. Such as the fact that 'dictatorship of the proletariat' was mentioned only THREE TIMES in their writings. (Source: My German history prof, who had read every word, bless his heart, so we didn't have to.)
I do not see 'environmentalism' as a viable alternative. The reason? Although it is laudable (though a bit belated, in my view, after the death of the last passenger pigeon) to love the earth, you cannot base a workable system on a list of 'thou shalt nots'.
Sustainability is a negative value. It will lose against the more attractive prospect of mutual exploitation.
In other words, stop trying to make people feel virtuous, a limited sort of joy. Be *really* sneaky, and find a way to make what you want them to do attractive.
Immigrants made America grow, not because they all believed in democracy (most of them couldn't pronounce it), but because they were looking for opportunity.
The reason George Washington and Ben Franklin wanted a patent system was to give people incentives to improve one another's lives. It worked.
Structure opportunity away from capitalism, and toward a cooperative model, and you'd have something sustainable.
Where is Franklin D. Roosevelt when you need him?
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| | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Nov 24, 2008 by GregPius
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| | This is really good thinking. Your point about structured cooperation is what was tried in the UK before WWI and up to the Great Depression. It all fell apart during the Depression. The key is savings. If you cam mobilise savings without using the banks then you have a chance to find an alternative to Capitalism. We need to put our heads together to come up with a viable alternative.
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| | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Nov 24, 2008 by GregPius
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| |   Capitalism died when the sub-prime mortgage crisis went global. Globalisation opened up the system to systemic infection. Like Bird Flu, there is no known antidote to global financial meltdown. Without credit and credit creation, capitalism cannot function. No amount of "pump priming" will save it. If you don't believe me go to your bank and asdk for a venture capital looan. As for what Marx said, he said a lot of things but they were largely a criticism of capitalism in general and laissez-faire capitalism in particular. The one quote that rings loud from Marx is: "Private property is theft!". Now this opens up a chance for Syndicalism but public property must be clearly defined. Marx did not develop a lot of his best ideas.The great secret of capitalism was the appropriation of surpluses. Marx wrote that the worker not only made the product but he created the wealth that paid not only his wages BUT provided the capitalist with his profit. My biggest "hate" is so-called "free" trade. Syndalicalism will allow FAIR TRADE because it will keep industry local and not allow it to be uprooted and moved overseas. "Free" trade is the greatest con trick of Capitalism. It makes the capitalist richer, makes the worker unemployed and condemns the consumer to poor quality merchandise.
Environmentalism is a very good alternative and can be combined with syndicalism. Many unions have imposed green bans and understand the benefits of protecting the environment.
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| | | Subject: A42927852 - Marxism vs Syndicalism
Posted Nov 24, 2008 by GregPius
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| | Marx said "Private property is theft!" Mention that in any conversation and you get an instant reaction. But he also said "Workers of the world unite you have nothing to lose but your chains." This statement has never been more appropriate. We will all hear appeals from politicians for workers to lift their productivity.
My answer would be "Why should we?" It was not the workers that caused the world financial meltdown. Now the workers are being asked to fix the problem. No the workers need first to get rid of the greedy bosses that caused the problem. Do it before they lose more of our wealth in their greedy financial deals.
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