 | | | Subject: Spankings
Posted Apr 29, 2001 by Trogly
| | Posting
1
 | | All I can say is, I had my share of (needed) spankings as I was growing up, and I don't think I turned out so bad. I don't recall ever being spanked in anger, though maybe in the heat of the moment. I wonder if there would be as many shootings and as much drug abuse in schools today if parents would and teachers could apply the appropriate device to the seat of the pants?! I don't advocate beatings, by any means, but sometimes you have to hit the mule between the ears with a 2-by-4 to get his attention!
|
| | | Subject: An Email From A Friend
Posted Apr 30, 2001 by  Uber Phreak
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
2
 | | Dear God,
Why didn't you save the school children in (insert name of latest act of
violence or attack at school here)?
Sincerely,
Concerned Student
Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God
Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools. And we said, OK. Then, someone said
you better not read the Bible in school, the Bible that says "Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself."And we said, OK.
Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we won't spank them anymore.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our
children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued. And we accepted their reasoning.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a grand idea.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and
They're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, that's another great idea.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And we said, it doesn't matter what anybody, including the President, does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good.
And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said, we have no problem with that.
And someone else took that appreciation a step further and published
pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet. And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech.
And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence and illicit sex... And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes... And we said, it's just entertainment and it has no adverse effect and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers or classmates, leave their babies in dumpsters or even kill themselves.
Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could figure it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...
"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
----------
yeah I agree with it and it is very powerful of the mess that we have made
but then again there are the parents and people who have stepped outside these lines to make sure that their children are prepared for the battfield called SCHOOL
yes values have deminished because it's a down hill slide
and to blame the system of education is not totally acurate
what you must blame is a diminishing lifestlye
of parents and elders and a society that believes that everything has a rational and that all things will be to the good anyway
let him smoke pot now and he'll be the president later when he grows up yet who is setting the direction
my parents did with me and i pray to God that this is the same with my dearest of friends
My parents taught me and raised me in a home and a church where God was the center of everything and that doing everything to full ability was the only way to go
I got spanked
and I'll spank my kids
never out of rage or ager but discipline and strictly to help them grow so my kids will have every avantage if not more than I did
and I think that is what the world forgot to tell it's youth
|
| | | Subject: Right
Posted May 1, 2001 by Clarke The Cynic -Keeper of all things darned (socks/souls).
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
3
| | Maybe, just, maybe, in your day, it was more difficult to get ahold of guns, and that's why there were less shootings. Or maybe it's the gross overpopulation. There was an experiment done, not very recently, with white mice. These mice were exposed to gross overpopulation of a relatively small area. And even though there was sufficient food and water given to these mice, they began, sporadically and without reason, to kill and eat eachother. No reason. They just did it.
On top of that, what right do you have, or believe anyone has, to impose their personal views of such abstract concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' through corporal punishment? If the poliec were to beat the hell out of a protestor, let me rephrase. If the police were to be CAUGHT beating a protestor, they would be fined, fired, and charged. At least where I live. Why do children lack these fundamental human rights, simply because they're children?
And where does it stop? Hit a kid with a cane because he talked out of turn? What are we trying to do there, hmm? we're trying to force a conformation to societal roles, that's what.
In closing, I'd just like to say that I was spanked as a child as well. I don't think I turned out badly, but all I can remember from ages 2+ until about 7 years ago is getting spanked every now and again.
That and getting my stomach pumped.
|
|  |
| | | Subject: Sounds like someone's in Denial.
Posted May 1, 2001 by Clarke The Cynic -Keeper of all things darned (socks/souls).
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
4
| | Now, I agree with many points in that, particularly, the ridiculousness of the legalization of a child-porn site. That's just wrong. Those kinda people need to be castrated. Anyway.
Ok. Lets reintroduce prayer, and the bible, in schools. That's a great idea. Wait. What about all those hindu people, and the buddhists, and the jewish people, and, aw heck! the entire 70% of the world population that isn't christian. Well, we can just force them to convert to your 'god.' And if they don't, we can slaughter them, and rape their women and children, in recollection of the 'glorious' Crusades, of which the total fatalities are still unknown. Good idea.
Yes, you have to worry about your children's 'little personalities.' Holy moses, smell the roses. It doesn't sound like you even believe your children HAVE thoughts, or minds, or are anything except little dolls to play with when you're bored.
Abortions. Well, why not let your daughter have an abortion? Why should they have to ruin their life because they made a mistake?
And don't gimme that, "They shouldn't have done it if they weren't ready for the responsibility' crap. Having a child should NEVER, EVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be a punishment.What kind of family life would this perpetual punishment have, d'ya think?
Why do you think the private lives of people are your business? hmm? What happened to, "judge not lest ye be judged," or are we only quoting selective bible verses here?
Condoms. Hmm. You don't like abortions, but you don't like precautions against conception, either? is there no pleasing you?
All that crap about nudity, violence, sex etc , well. That's what the world is like today. it is violent. Sex, what's so bad about sex? as the song goes, "birds do it, bee's do it..." It's a perpetuation of a species. Oh, i mean, it's bad. we should all stop.
I've never heard satanic music. YAY for suicide! exercise your personal freedom!
I have more, but I'm tired of this.
|
| | | Subject: Sounds like someone's in Denial.
Posted May 1, 2001 by Little Mischief
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
5
| | yeah, somebody sent me that email, too. and after i read it (and got over my frustration with the person who sent it), my first thought was this: when are people going to start accepting responsibility for their own shortcomings and looking for others to blame?
if my child grows up and takes an uzi to work and murders 10 of his co-workers, it won't be because there is no prayer in school. it will be because in some fundamental way i failed as a parent. it won't be the government's fault for forbidding the schools to teach my son about god, it will be my own fault for not doing the same.
god does not belong in schools. period. there is a reason for the separation of church and state. if you want your child to be taught to pray in school, then you may send your child to private religious school.
uber freak, imagine this for just a moment: you are a christian. but just imagine for the sake of argument that ninety percent of the country is bhuddist. so bhuddist ideals and rituals are ingrained into your child in the course of attending public schools. would you not feel that your religious freedom had been infringed upon? and it would be all up to you, and you alone to teach your child what you want him or her to know about god. is that not already part of your responsibility as a parent? what if that ninety percent population was wiccan or satanist? where does the line get drawn? what religions are *right* and which ones are *wrong*, and who are you to make those claims?
the responsibility of raising and disciplining a child rests solely with the parents. it is no longer the village that raises a child. it is the parents responsibility to teach their child right from wrong, to use methods of discipline that impact an individual child, to introduce their child to the god of their choice. it is the parent's responsibility to spend time with their children, help them with homework to instill the importance of education, show them how to ride their bikes to build their self-confidence, teach them how to cook and become self sufficient. it is your responsibility to teach your child responsibility. none of these responsibilities to the village, the schools, or the government.
|
| | | Subject: Sounds like someone's in Denial.
Posted May 1, 2001 by Mac
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
6
| | I agree. I believe that the responsibility does rest completely with the parent There will be other influences, from friends, school and society. But as regards "spanking" - I received a hiding now and again from my father, and although difficult to remember, slaps from my mum, yet I grew up content and very secure in a loving environment. My parents are both still alive and so loving and supporting. I'm now 52 and have a nine year old daughter.Before she was born, I would have supported the " a good hiding never did anyone any real harm" school of thought. But I once slapped her on the legs when she was about two and a half years old! She was throwing a wobbly, refusing to get dressed to go to school, trying to bolt through our recently added back door to the snowbound mire we thought of as our garden with 10 minutes remaining until the school bus called - yes they start early in France.
I instantly regretted it, as it was so obviously an act of my frustrations and impatience. Any form of physical abuse, like slapping or being given a good hiding ( english lancastrian for being slapped on the legs and hind quarters and sent to bed in disgrace )surely must be seen as a instinctive hostile reaction.
No person should half the right to make any contact with any other person without their due consent. Children particularly, as they have yet to attain a realistic view of reality. A friend of mine once admonished his 8 year old son with the age-old phrase "For God's Sake act you age!" only for his 8 yr old son to reply "But Dad, I am acting my age!
Having spent 2 years teaching elementary school in a tough area of London, physical discipline will never work. Once you've done it there's no way do UNDO it. The damage has been done! Just think about it.
|
| | | Subject: more on spanking
Posted May 2, 2001 by broelan
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
7
| | pain is a deterrent. period. it doesn't have to be a lot of pain, a few seconds of slight discomfort will do. if you stub your toe on the table leg, you give the table a wider berth to avoid repeating pain.
it is okay to spank a child, it is not okay to beat a child. you do not have to spank a child hard to get it's attention. and it is not neccessary to be uncontrollably angry when you spank a child. it is okay to warn your child, "if you do not stop doing that you will get a spanking". and if you do give warning, it is vital that you follow through, else your child will learn that mom's or dad's threats are empty.
mac, i'm curious. not that hitting your child in anger was the right thing to do, but how else would you have gotten a two year old to understand that time was of the essence?
|
| | | Subject: Alternitives
Posted May 2, 2001 by Uber Phreak
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
8
| | i would like to ask how you would teach a child to behacve using only language as a deterant. a child learns that pain hurts before they learn no means no. by the way, i do not personally think the school systems should teach religion. i agree that if i did i should send my child to a private school. but i do think that children and students should be allowed time during the day to practice their faith. Some people take the seperation of church and state too far. they seem to think that morals are a for of religion. another comment i would like to adress is "Condoms. Hmm. You don't like abortions, but you don't like precautions against conception, either? is there no pleasing you?". it would appear that their is a biological nessitiy to have sex, because you did not even CONSIDER waiting until marraige to have sex, now did you? I will admit freely that i am still in school. some of the things i listen to every day sickens me. in one of my classes the topic usally revolves around the women complaining that they always have to worry about pregnacy every time it is time for their period. now if their parents had done a better job of teaching them morals as they grew up this would not be a problem. i am tired of alway watching people my age make mistakes with their lives. I wish that more people would raise their children right.
if a girl gets pregnate apperantly SHE decide that she was old enought to endure the pains of child birth. I am not saying that she would have to marry the father and raise the child. she would have the option of giving the child up for adoption, and one of the many people who cant have kids of their own can move one slot up on the long waiting list and possible have a child to love as their very own. i see the physical pain as very minor compared to haveing to live with the knowledge that the girl had a life inside her, until the ok was given and it was brutaly murdered and then vacuumed out of the womb to be thrown amoung the dirty needles and outher biological "waste".
just the other day i sat and watched a mother incourrage her 17 year old son to, and i quote "F*****g knock his f*****g c*ck off" in responce to the second person fingering her son after her son threw a rock at him at a stop light. now here is a perfect example of a parent doing a bad job of raising her son, in my opionion.
a little over two years ago, a group of boys managed to make multiple bombs, saw off shotguns and plan a masacre. the parents were so uninvolved in their childrens lives they didnt notice the phycological evidence preciding this, or the physical evident in their own home, not to mention that they never "physicaly reprimanded" their children. maybe if they had the child would have learned that "violence"(even though on a MUCH smaller scale) as you put it hurts people. maybe then they would not have gone to school and shot people.
i dont know. i have had the privilage from haveing some of the best people around to teach me how to be a human being and not just a monkey with fancy toys. I am going to continue to use my privilages in life as i grow up. i will use what i have been taught, and what i have observed in my parents as they raised me, I will honor them by raising my kids as they raised theirs.
to any one that actually read this whole post, kudos.
|
| |
| | | Subject: a reply to, Alternitives
Posted May 3, 2001 by Clarke The Cynic -Keeper of all things darned (socks/souls).
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
10
| | Ok, uber, what's so wrong about having safe, monogamous sex before marriage? If you can answer me that without referring to your religious beliefs, or by just saying it's wrong, then I'll graciously concede the point to you, that is, if it is of substance.
Just because said women in your class behave and act differently than you do, does not mean, "they are making mistakes with theird lives." on that note, what so bad about mistakes? Everyone makes mistakes. it's part of the learning experience.
If a girl gets pregnant, it isn't obvious she is ready to endure the pains of childbirth. The physical pains are not the entire story.
Imagine the mental anguish teh admitted, 'girl' (not woman, or adult) would have to endure, to go to school every day. Unless you want her to drop out of school. ok. Who's going to pay for the baby? I doubt you would, uber. Nope, it's the parents. Who neither suggested to their daughter that she run off and have sex, nor forced her to.
So, now they're down either their self-opinion, or they're education, and they're also losing money. And uber, about that life inside her. Most, if not all, (and I'm not sure about all, so don't hold me to it) abortions occur before the foetus has any brain activity at all. so, by the laws of the land, the foetus is either dead, an organ of the mother, or, less pleasantly, a parasite, a parasite to such a degree that leaving the host would result in death.
Now, don't get angry. I wasn't suggesting that children are parasites, or leeches or disgusting. I'm just saying that, The foetus isn't 'alive.' were it not in-utero, it would be legal to pull the plug.
The mother encouraging her son to fight, well, I gotta concede that point. That's bad parenting. but, how then, after agreeing this form of violence is wrong, do you agree with spankings? Why is it more acceptable for someone who is not only in a position of authority, but is three or four times the SIZE of a child get to hit said child with impunity?
Okey dokey. Going to school and shooting people. That's bad. The whole bit about the evidence, the 'psychological evidence, the physical evidence,' is silly. Do you think all parents have degrees in psychology? maybe the kids were well-adjusted, and just decided to kill people. physical evidence is pretty iffy. You can make a bomb from ingredients I recently found under my sink. It's not like the students necesarilly had hand-grenades and blasting caps. As I recall they used pipe-bombs. Pipe bombs can be mad with a partition wall seperating battery acid and baking soda, in a pipe. Pipe bombs can be made with gunpowder too. It's not hard to buy illegal guns, anywhere in the world, so it holds that buying illegal ammunition isn't too rough, either. Don't say that if the kids where spanked they wouldn't have done that. You're not omnipotent. It didn't happen, so we have no variables to work with.
Maybe soon, children will gain the same rights as adults, and it will be as illegal to spank your kids as it is to spank your wife. or your mother. or your father. or your husband. Age is the differentiator.
|
| | | Subject: a reply to, a reply to, Alternitives
Posted May 3, 2001 by Uber Phreak
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
11
| | It has been proven(and i will post a link or the artice as soon as i find it again) that sex before maraige results in more unwanted pregnatcies than sex during marraige. Aside from the fact that this ends up causing more abortions, which are terminations of at least pontential human life, unwanted pregnacies often end up with a raise in the crime rate, because unwanted children dont get as much effort put into raising them.
About someone paying for the birth of a child as opposed to an abortion, on of the girls i know recently got pregnate. She offered the child up for adoption pre-natally. The birth was paid for by the adoptive parents. The adoptive parents had been on a waiting list for 5 years for the change to adopt. The people are out their for the alternive.
I would like to clarify myself. When i say spanking, i am not talking about beating. there is a difference. I would rather have had my hand swatted than getting a serious burn from touching a hot stove or iron. I would rather have gotten a swat than used crayon on the walls ruined the paint. When used correctly, spanking is the lesser of the choices of pain. Once, when i was a child, my sister convinced me to grab a hot iron when my parents werent near. My sister got spanked to give her a feel for the pain she caused. She never tried any thing simialer.
Back to the school shootings bit. I am going to paraphrase the American Psychology Association: The warning signs of violence include loss of temper on a daily basis, frequent physical fighting, significant vandalism, as well as increase in alcohol or drugs. Other signs include detailed plans to commit violence, announcing threats, enjoying hurting animals, and carrying a weapon. I am sure that even the least educated parent would see something wrong with combinations of the above behavior. People dont just wake up in the morning one day and say, "You know what? I think I will take a gun and a few bombs to school and see how many of my classmates I can kill today!" Events lead up to these sort of things.
I agree that it is fairly simple to make bombs out of household chemicals, because I have been taught how to make smoke bombs and packets to throw in the fire to make the flame change color. Before I learned any of this, though i had to prove i was responsible, and i was taught well that i was not to do anything dangerous. I say this for one reason, my parents raised me to see violence as wrong( and accourding to my previous deffinition, spanking is not on the same feild as true violence)and i have always lived up to their standards, and i am not seen as a threat now that i have this knowledge.
sorry again about the longish posting.
|
| | | Subject: reality
Posted May 4, 2001 by broelan
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
12
| | please do not discuss abortion here. there is another place for that. you can find it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/a472295
it is important to realize that there is no one true method of child rearing. what works best for me will not necessarily work best for you, and what works best for you will not necessarily work best for the next person. each of us is different, every child is different. each parent and child will react differently to the same situation.
as far as the school shootings, yes, some children exhibit signs that could be observed by parents. those signs should also be observable to friends and teachers. when i hear of these tragedies, of course my first response is to wonder where the parents were and how could they not see this coming. but the simple truth is that while the parents did of course fail in some way, they are not the only ones responsible. in the cases of the teenagers shooting up the high schools, some of these attacks are meticulously planned out, down to details. they know they are going to be identified, so they go in with an agenda, fulfill their agenda, then take (or attempt to take) their own lives. if you were planning such an assault, would you leave clues around begging someone to find you out and stop you? children, even younger children and especially teenagers are quite capable of hiding things they don't want adults to find. granted small children aren't as good at it... i eventually found the underwear my son had hidden to keep me from finding out he didn't make it to the bathroom in time.
the fact is that there is no ultimate rule to raising children. there is no 'one method fits all possibilities'. i reason with my child. he is capable of understanding me. when he does things to get into trouble, he does them with full knowledge that if he is caught he will be in trouble. he knows what the consequences are. i can talk to him just like i am talking to you now, because that's the way i have raised him. and i have paddled him. and i will paddle him in the future, if i feel it is necessary. that necessity is defined by me, and me alone. it is not your place to tell me that i should never spank my child. it is also not your place to tell me that my child needs a spanking.
|
| | | Subject: more on spanking
Posted May 6, 2001 by Mac
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
13
| | Hiya St. Broelan,
You asked me quote
"mac, i'm curious. not that hitting your child in anger was the right thing to do, but how else would you have gotten a two year old to understand that time was of the essence?"
I dont know, but it surely cannot be relevant to her or his 2-year old life! We're applying our own adult values and perceptions upon all this. They do have to learn and that is our responsibilty as parents, but really, please, will smacking a 2 year old REALLY solve anything? Once done, it can never, ever be undone! It is such a crude weapon, always inflicted by one more powerful than the other. I like to think of our daughter as an equal. I smacked her once, and even as I was doing it knew instinctively that it was an gross error on my part. I knew immediately that I could nor would do anything like that again to any living entity. And I've never needed to.
|
| |
| | | Subject: reply to reality
Posted May 7, 2001 by Clarke The Cynic -Keeper of all things darned (socks/souls).
This is a reply to this Posting
| | Posting
14
| | Right. YOu believe it is no-one's business whether or not you spank your child. Ever ask your child if he/she thinks spanking is a good form of discipline? Hows about, the next time you make a mistake, or do something wrong, myself and a buncha my friends show up at your house with baseball bats and hockey sticks?
How tall are you? How tall is your son/daughter? How much do you weigh? how much does your son/daughter weigh? Why is it illegal for me to 'discipline' you using physical violence when, in all probability, we're the same size, but legal for you, who I do not doubt, towers over your small child, to strike your child? You may say it's not our business, but what you people don't seem to understand is that your children are alive, ok? They can feel pain. When you spank your child, you are hurting your child, you are not teaching him/her a lesson, you are causing a chemical to be released into the blood which signals a pain reflex. When I was younger, and my parents spanked me, I didn't think to myself, "Oh, I was bad, I deserved that." I thought, "Yeah, one day, I'll be as big as daddy, then he'll be sorry." You are hurting your child. All this brings about is a feeling of resentment and a desire for vengeance. This establishes the belief that violence is a mediator, and can, acceptably, be used to resolve disputes. Why do you think children of abusive families grow up to be abusive themselves? Violence begets violence, and it increases incrementally. Incidentally, why do you think it is that your child was scared to show you he had an accident, and took pains to stop you discovering that accident.
Uber.
Yes, sex before marriage does result in more unwanted pregnancies. I did say; Safe, monogomous sex.
Note that. Using contraceptives and protection=safe. It's hard to get pregnant if steps are taken to avoid it.
The girl who had all the charges for the baby taken care of.
Didn't she still have to carry the baby for nine months?
Spanking and beating... assault and aggravated assault. (unless done to a child, in which case, asssault becomes acceptable, and aggravated assault becomes battery, or just plain assault.)
I believe the school shootings bit was taken care of in the last paragraph. Hiding things from your parents isn't hard. Enjoying shooting animals, eh? Well, I have an uncle who is a devout christian, and a pacifist, and he's an avid hunter and angler. I'm not saying that's not a symptom, but I'm saying it's unreliable at best.
How do you believe that spanking isn't violence, hmm? You raise your hand, and forcefully bring it down onto your child with the sole purpose of causing pain to that child. What is violence, then?
I would like to apologize to anyone I have offended with my opinions, or the way they have been presented. Nonetheless, they are my opinions, and will continue to be argued. I'm not saying you child-destruction :P advocates are bad people, or even, necessarily, horrible parents, I'm just saying that people need to realize that just because something was done to them, and just because there's no-one to stop them from doing it except themselves, it doesn't make it right.
|
| |
|
