 | | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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 | | I am hopeful that the Community Consortium can come up with a workable plan for an independent community-run h2g2. This is not merely a pipe dream but is based on the support they have been offered by hosting companies and the like. So based on that assumption....
What would you like for h2g2 once we are free fom the constraints of the BBC?
I am not talking about tweaks like a LIKE button for posts. I am not even talking about what feels like radical change, like no longer having Edited entries locked up forever.
I am thinking in terms of extending the Peer Review process to support music, images and video. Or producing a Google Maps mash-up so you could browse by location. Or android and iPhone apps so the Guide offered you entries for where you were at the time. Oh and a site where whoever starts a thread moderates it (which is what happens in blogs right now). Or even - gosh look at me, the iconoclast - breaking down the wall between the EG and the UG and just going for quality.
All any of this needs is open source code and a strong community with a clear sense of identity. We have the community, and after 12 years we have the sense of identity. I have no reason to think we wont get open source code. (No reason TO think it either, alas, but one can dream).
So...?
Lets face it the BBCs lack of vision killed us with kindness and prevented us from being what we *should* have been.
So, if we can stop thinking inside the constraints imposed by our own Stockholm Syndrome what directions would you like to see h2g2 taking?
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Rod
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 | | This is going to take some thinking about.
First impressions:
. extending the Peer Review process to support music, images and video.
. producing a Google Maps mash-up so you could browse by location.
. android and iPhone apps so the Guide offered you entries for where you were at the time.
Wouldn't do much for me - no opposition.
. a site where whoever starts a thread moderates it (which is what happens in blogs right now).
Need to know more, can see pros and a con
. breaking down the wall between the EG and the UG and just going for quality.
A cautious yes... no, take that as a Yes
Watching
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by  Lanzababy - Guide Editor
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| | Being able to post images, music and vids would be great. We are constrained by copyright law, held in check by the BBC. Of course in a newly resurrected h2g2, we would still have to obey legalities. But as long as we have a good enough framework to deal with blatant copyright stuff I'd love to see this option.
 Why "extending the Peer Review process to support music, images and video. " though, why not on our Personal Spaces or in threads?
I like the idea of the person starting the thread to moderate it. A full yes for this. I guess there would be another layer above - a sort of Volunteer moderator. The way the ACE's work now is a good model, they are the general good guys around the place - soothing and calming.
Which brings me to suggest that ACE's are still going to be needed. They are very valuable and mostly taken for granted as they work behind the scenes by and large taking newbies under their wings.
I'd like to see emphasis on the UG, but it is so difficult in PR when someone sends in an opinion piece which they believe is destined for the EG. (now "approved entry") For simplicity's sake I think that PR should just stay for one type of Entry: The Guide.
My personal feeling is that the Underguide is wrongly named, calling something the "under" demeans it. Maybe with a more positive connotation the Underguide could rightly take equal place at the table with the Guide. There are so many fantastic pieces of writing in it, I'd like to see more emphasis placed on this, but not to merge it with PR.
However, I can see reason for Scouts and Sub-editors being jointly responsible for both places. And you need to retain the position of Sub-editors. ( I read a suggestion to disband the subbing posts somewhere the other day ) Even with scrupulous attention to the text in PR things do get missed and a fresh pair of eyes before publication often produces better end results.
On the subject of Volunteers, this needs addressing. At the moment there is a continual renewal and updating of the site undertaken by the Curators who are able to edit Entries, revising and correcting - fixing broken links etc. This is a massive task and one which will continue to be necessary as the Guide will need to be kept up to date.
(it's a pity the Guide Revised U14449759 project had such little support)
Yes to retaining a filther, but not a nanny type one.
. . . and I think more things will come to me after some decent 
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Rod
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| | Taff @2 & me @3 must have been a simpost
Taff' suggestion for a 5 min post-post edit -
NO. If I want to reply to someone, how do I know that an edit will be just typos? It'd be a six-min pause between posts - one of Taff's would be TEN mins 
Languages - not so sure it would help. How on earth would we cope with a thread in Swahili, on in Russian, one in Polish ...
Entry categorisation - I'll wait for others' opinions.
- -
Moderation is a sticky one: In principle, thread owners backed up by reactive seems ok
but
Do we want it to be a family show? Attract younger users (therefore needing to cope with parents, too)?
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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| | We are a *very* English speaking site, but back in the day a lot of our Germans, Danes and Swedes had minor threads in their own languages.
It would be nice to have Welsh, Irish or Gaelic threads... But realistically that's not likely to happen....
Someone's just published the suggestion of a print edition. With http://www.lulu.com one can do that on a pay per book basis. It would be really good loo reading, much better than most. (Copyright issues there for current content, but I assume that those are part of the discussions the Italics are having with the rest of the BBC right now, so for the perposes of this thread, let's assume they're resolved).
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by kea ~ Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small, unregarded but very well read blue and white website
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| | I'm agin the flashing up of the site in general. I like that it's predominantly text only, this is meant to be a writers' site after all.
I also like that it's visually quiet. For me it's like being able to go to a cafe and have the music low enough that me and my friends can converse with ease and don't have to compete with other sounds or shout to be heard (for that reason I think coffee machines should be back in the kitchen  ).
I know that flash (and loud cafe music) creates a certain kind of atmosphere that attracts some people (yoof apparently), but I also know if puts others off.
I can see a case to be made for more pictures in EGEs, and audio in some. Not sure about video.
The other issue for me is that where I live has somewhat slow broadband relative to say London, so lots of flash is always going to run less well and slower. (I'm still not sure why the Eds limited thread length to ten posts per page but I somehow doubt they would have if they has internet at the rate that I do).
I also understand that if we want to grow the site, then AV may make the place more attractive, but I guess this is an issue of where we want the site to go. Do we want to get massive? Or do we want to continue to create something unique and creatively edged? I don't want this place to become massive myself, but I do want it to do well enough that it survives easily.
>>
I am thinking in terms of extending the Peer Review process to support music, images and video. Or producing a Google Maps mash-up so you could browse by location. Or android and iPhone apps so the Guide offered you entries for where you were at the time.
<<
For me the issue here is pace. Can we shift the site, manage the community and do lots of change at the same time? How do we manage that and keep ourselves at the creative edge technology wise? Do we need to be cutting edge tech wise, or is it enough to be a really cool community.
Again, I think this depends on what the site is for ("what is *it* that we are saving?"). The answers to the tech questions should follow that IMO.
Not sure which of the above are mutually exclusive or inclusive.
*
No to a 5 minute edit function. In fast threads, esp the debate ones it would be a nightmare. If you can't use the preview function then too bad
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I'm for the EG being opened up, but I'd like to see categories eg fiction, non-fiction etc. (I know this presents problems).
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Moderation... I like the idea of the thread-starter moderating, in theory. But I also know how frustrated I've been when everyone goes off into a warner bashing thread and how this depletes other threads. I can see the potential for some threads to get really intense *because* of how they're being moderated and this energy pulling everyone in. If the site were big enough this would be less of a problem.
Can we trial this?
And I agree there probably needs to be another level of moderation somewhere.
*
Other than English languages sounds fine to me. I think there would have to be enough of a community in whatever language though to manage it eg copywrite and libel breaches.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by deb - 29 down, 45.5 to go...getting there slowly
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| | The problem I see with the originator of the thread acting as moderator is that it could be misused to gag opposition to their POV. I know most people here wouldn't do that but there are a few.
Lanzababy, re your comment about calling it the underguide being demeaning, I have to say I never saw it like that. It always seemed like it was slightly cooler than the EG, like an underground resistance. Not less worthy than the EG, just different and perhaps slightly more risque. I should mention this is based purely on the name as I don't get enough time on-line to read anything beyond Ask, a glance at the front page and hopefully a look at 
I agree the age restriction should be lowered. I understand there were some very worthy researchers in their early teens. I doubt the site would be of interest to those much younger than 12 or 13 though.
I thihnk it would be nice for there to be other language places within the site, but I agree the main site should be english* otherwise what's the point? If you can't understand half the posts in a thread, you're not going to stick around for long.
Deb 
* like it or not, it's the language most foreign speakers learn
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Reddy Freddy
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| | If the beginner of the thread becomes moderator, several things can happen: (i) people will not start threads because they think the workload will become too much; (ii) they'll  the thread leaving it unmoderated; (iii) they'll over-moderate the thread. None of these will be an acceptable situation, IMO.
I think we should leave moderation to an acceptable level of post-moderation with an unconnected third party provider, without a swear-filter, and with an appeal procedure *that works* in the event of context-sensitive moderation. I don't think we need a swear filter...we're all grown up enough to be able to express ourselves, and there's always the  smiley. We seem to be able to insult each other enough without recourse to bad language - largely because, as users of this site, our language skills are developed highly enough to insult each other politely .
RF
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by RadoxTheGreen - Retired
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25
| | Bring everything over as it is and get it working before making too many changes. However, for the longer term, I would like to see a section of the site where people could do a history blog. Events as they are happening around the world, possibly collated and entered into an 'approved' final entry similar to how we do the EG. This would enable users worldwide to describe their day to day experiences as they happen.
I also would like this extended to enable personal recollections of World War 2, tales or letters handed down from Grandad etc.
I think that sort of thing will greatly appeal to people who haven't used us before. It gives them the foot in the door and lets them feel they are contributing to something worthwhile. Their writings could be linked to entries in the guide. Something like having an EG entry on Dunkirk in WW2 with links to peoples recollections from both sides of the battle.
I aslo agree the Underguide is wrongly named and should be given greater prominence and support. I was on here for a year before I even knew we had an underguide and have rarely visited it because it's never been prominent enough to attract my attention. Then again, I don't read thepost> that much either 
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Pinniped
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27
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We were getting there with the proposition of PROD (A4053412), only the different perceptions of the instigators and the need for a common position meant that PROD turned out to be more spirit than substance. It’s still a damn good rallying point IMO, though. I think the low numbers who tore into it out of petty spite are either persuaded or gone now. At last, we collectively accept that we have to change.
I’ve always been pretty sure about where we need to go. Summarised simply, it has been the same two ideas for nearly ten years now:
- that there needs to be a single Edited Guide, consisting of writing of all genres. It should simply be our showcase, and a repository of our work giving guaranteed reading pleasure
- that the Edited Guide entry bar should be set much higher. We should demand and aspire to an elite standard
I’ve been told many times by friends that the potentially-achievable goal of a broadened EG is frustrated by my linking it with the deeply contentious elitism proposition. I’ll therefore try and justify the harder one, ie elitism, first.
I’d like everyone to consider why there’s a perception (grudging or otherwise) that the UnderGuide is a treasure of h2g2. Is it because the best writing on the site is to be found in the UnderGuide? Clearly not: there’s great writing in the Edited Guide too, and personal preferences between the two depend on taste and interest, not on technical quality.
Instead, it’s because the AVERAGE standard of the UnderGuide is way higher than that of the Edited Guide. If you hit the Random Edited Entry button, there’s maybe a 10% chance that’ll you’ll read something that you’ll remember all day. In the UnderGuide, the equivalent probability is near-certainty.
Inclusivity was a big thing for the BBC (though they practised a corrupted form of it, but that’s not the issue here). Critical mass will be a big issue for the new community. They’re not the same thing. We can now manage an active balance between standards and headcount. To make a W**k analogy, we can decide whether we’re like a Professional Institution or a Trade Union. My vote is for the former, I guess.
This is not to say that you have to be a good writer to join the community, only that you’ll need to become one to get your work into the Edited Guide. If we adopt this principle, the goal of the community will naturally tend to the virtuous end of the celebration and coaching of writing excellence. That’s fundamentally what our community is about, isn’t it?
I guess there’s a corollary to those two points above; my personal credo if you like: Writing is more important than anything else here. Reading is second, and editing is a distant third. (Censoring is nothing more than a necessary evil, if even that. Being a chatroom, well, that’s for Facebook).
Back with the all-inclusive Edited Guide idea. Lanzababy is right about the UnderGuide’s title of course, and it was coined I suspect as a self-deprecating reference to the way that the Powers deemed it ‘other’ than the core project. I was a detractor of the UnderGuide myself at first, and never more than a lukewarm fan, even while working hard at it. I don’t mean lukewarm about the writing, which is brilliant. I mean lukewarm about the accepted role and place of the UG in h2g2. Sometimes progress towards a goal becomes the problem. The troublemakers have had their concession, thought Charlotte. Now they should just shut up.
The prevailing system is policed by the Writing Guidelines of course, and so whatever else happens, they’re due for change. Occam applies here: we need a bare minimum. I’d propose that there should be two Writing Guidelines only: no plagiarism, and no deliberate causing of hurt. Whatever we have in future by way of a Scout function too, we can’t afford anal applicators of a perceived rulebook. Critics by rote are contemptible idiots, and Peer Review has had too many of those down the years, as well as too few brave (or rude) enough to puncture them. I’m sorry, but there are some things you just need to say straight, and that’s one of them.
The thing we miss most in the current EG, incidentally, has never been fiction or poetry IMO. It's well-written essays, ie really sharp opinion pieces. And therein lies another of the inherent BBC incompatibilities. Too many Slants down the years have basically been failed journos, and they couldn't abide happy amateurs writing better copy than they could, and doing it just for fun.
If we use our new-found freedoms wisely, we could get a lot more edgy. There are some deeply provocative and radical thinkers among us. Loosening their literary leashes excites me.
Finally, I stood outside of this debate in its first days, till Ben in particular persuaded me that my contribution was valid and might be helpful. And I want to say right now is that I’m flexible. I’m wondering even now whether a separate EG and UG could be made to work in the context of a new site. Maybe they could, provided that both have high-bar entry standards. We could downsize the EG and retain its not-so-good for reworking in a kind of Flea Market. The size of the EG is irrelevant now (particularly since Wiki is the indisputable winner of the on-line people’s encyclopedia contest).
This isn’t an exercise in rhetoric. It’s a debate. We need suggestions, then we need to drive to a consensus. This is ours. The one good thing about all this turmoil is the realisation that the only thing that matters here is our writing and reading pleasure.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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| | Just scooping up some points that have been made
1) Pace of change
It will be whatever it will be - too fast for some not fast enough for others . Let's face it, unless we get a Rich Buyer with Opinions we aren't going to have change forced on us. There's also an argument for saying that the problem has been lack of change not too much change. But I do take your point about not running before we can walk.
2) What is the "it" that we are trying to save?
That could have been - probably should have been - the title for this thread. What IS the "it" that we are trying to save?
I think it's a supportive community where people can learn to write. Take a look at what's been said by the people who valued their time here but who have since more or less left:
http://unmemorablemusings.tumblr.co...945364915/h2g2-a-missed-opportunity
http://stephensliberaljournal.blogs...-to-save-hitch-hikers-guide-to.html
http://aw1x.wordpress.com/2011/01/2...-fall-of-the-axe-a-lament-for-h2g2/
http://doctormo.org/2011/01/24/bbc-to-shutter-h2g2/
So it seems to be about writing and about ideas and improving and refining both. This is unique - it's different from blogland where no-one critiques your writing and unless you are lucky very few engage with what you say.
Now here's my radical question:
 Could it also be about improving and refining artwork or video or audio work? Could we extend to include radio scripts for example? Or support the community artists properly again?
And here's another:
Does it have to be third-person factual, or can we extend it to more documentary-style anecdote and autoethnography? Or even (clearly labled) Opinion pieces. Newspapers have News / Opinion / Editorial and Features. Why not us?
Incidentally, I wasn't thinking of audio-smileys in conversation threads. Much more about extending the critique-and-support that appears to be unique about us sideways into other related media.
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by minichessemouse - The mouseling has arrived!
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| | I agree that we should get to know any new home before we redecorate.
Most of us are familiar with the old look and feel of the old skins, but the dated look of them may put some new users off, also whoever buys us may give us a redecorate in their own colours anyway.
I like the yikes model of moderation, i have never fallen foul of it yet, retaining a profanity filter makes sense as long as the Scunthorpe issue or m-uffs debate don't happen because of it.
lowering the age limit to 14 seems to me a sensible idea, I'm sure it says somewhere in the writing guidelines that any guide entry should be able to be read and understood by the average 14 year old.
Keep the ACE's I know i don't help out as much ACEwise as I should, but I am always ready to step in and help any floundering newbie, I would also be willing to hit the yikes button on any outright nastiness or profanity.
The AViators have done a fantastic job in the past getting their work into the edited guide, i don't see why that sort of thing would do any harm as long as copyright etc is adhered to and therefore I think that the AViators group should remain in place to assist those who believe Audio and Visual content would aid understanding of their entry.
mini
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Solnushka (Foundation)
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| | I am most interested by the question of what should constitute the Guide, should be get the opportunity to rethink this. I think some of the other issues, such as how much moderation, might be constrained by who buys us or the legal implications of becoming an antonymous collective. Perhaps we should talk about structure like that a bit closer to the time.
But, yes, what is the 'it' that we want to save and are prepared to fight for.
I do think it should be a Guide. I think, therefore, that it shouldn't include out and out fiction but should be about actual stuff. That said I support strongly the idea that the current ideal of only the objective facts should be scrapped. In trying to define how the Guide is different to Wikkipedia, I've seen some lovely descriptions, but in actual fact I think that we are too like them because of those rules. Plus it does make for some dull writing sometimes. I totally agree that we could do with some opinion pieces, but actually I would set the criteria so broadly that it makes a mockery of my stance on fiction. Someone recommended some UG articles in another thread, and it just so happened that the three by Dimitri were all either dramatisations, or stories linked very closely to, real events. Clearly fiction, but about reality.
This, incidentaly would definitely mean getting rid of the rule about their being only one article on a given topic.
I appreciate there would be a distinct problem in deciding where to draw the line, were my idea to be implemented. To be honest, I'd settle for a categorisation system which put those articles like Dimitri's all on the side of the factual, or in whatever category an more EG entry on those topics would be under if we must have the imaginary stuff in.
The thing is, I think the really interesting thing about h2g2 is that is (or could be, because I also agree that we could set the bar for quality writing higher, although there's something to be said for improving one's writing by getting down and doing it often enough) a site for writing about real things, not a writing site entirely devoted to creative writing. I worry slightly that if we make it just a writing site, the factual side will wither away in favour of people doing what I always thought was more fun at school and just making things up. I actually think that writing about more factual things _in an interesting and creative way_ is the more challenging writing task anyway.
She says as someone who has read far far too many stultifying history books in her time.
Oh, and I agree with the idea of making it not just about writing too. But with the same content boundries.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Malabarista - live a little! The night is young, and we have umbrellas in our drinks.
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| | I'd advise not making to too bandwidth-heavy, especially if we're trying to attract mobile users as well.
And while combining everything into one "Guide" has its merits, there would have to be some sort of distinction between fact and fiction and essay and so on, because otherwise, it would end up all being seen as fiction. People who make up their own facts to add to otherwise true stories are just lazy and can't be bothered to research. We don't want a lot of Creationist drivel in here, either.
I still don't understand the xenophobia shown here about foreign languages.  Yes, you might have to learn a foreign language to keep up with certain threads, but since those threads tend to be more or less private ones between a small group of users, does it really matter? I'm sure we can find sub-editors for a *lot* of languages here, especially the European ones. Perhaps they can be translated into English in addition, not instead. We tend to look down on a few writers in PR because English is not their first language; just imagine how they can fly in their native tongue!
Oh yes, and by all means lower the age limit, but only if we don't introduce a private message function.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Dogster
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| | Very interesting thread, this! I'd got to the point where I'd pretty much assumed that h2g2 would gradually fade away, but some of the ideas on this thread suggest it could revitalise itself.
I really like the idea of a radical shakeup of the edited guide concept, and a focus instead on writing (which can be factual, opinion, fiction, whatever). To me, this really distinguishes it from wikipedia which - we should be honest about it - totally beats h2g2 on its own terms.
Clearly there is space for opinion and fiction writing that doesn't clash with wikipedia. One thing we might think though, is that there would be no space for factual entries given that wikipedia has that covered so well. But I don't think that's true. For a start, wikipedia has no expository articles, and indeed many of its articles are incredibly difficult to read. Additionally, there is space for articles with better quality writing. I don't mean that the wikipedia writing is necessarily bad, but because its so collaboratively written, with any word or sentence liable to be changed at any minute, that forces a certain style that isn't particularly pleasant to read. So, the idea would be for factual entries to focus on things you would want to read from start to finish, for the pleasure of reading it, rather than necessarily to get all the required facts (for which there is wikipedia).
At least for the factual side, an interesting model might be scholarpedia.
http://www.scholarpedia.org/
I recommend you take a look at the front page which describes the idea behind it pretty well. Essentially, it is like wikipedia, but articles are written by academics (or scholars if you prefer) and are peer reviewed in the same way that academic articles are peer reviewed before publication in a journal. The difference is that after the first version is finished, the author becomes a curator of the entry. Anyone can make changes, but the curator of the article retains editorial control over it. This model wouldn't apply exactly to h2g2, but something like it would allow for easier correction of edited guide entries and be able to deal with the problem of content going stale, I think.
With all that, if the front page had new factual entries, opinion stuff, fiction, etc. then it would be much more interesting to read. For a start, there'd likely be a lot more new content each day.
Anyway, great stuff everyone!  I hope it happens.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Gordon Jones
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| | I recently rediscovered this site after years away from it. During which the gleefully unnerving ability and implicit encouragement to just write and contribute to a community, and even the very username I first signed up with, have served to turn me onto a moderately entertaining writer with a modest reach among the various internet communities. I may not have contributed much in the way of value, if at all, but the principles of fair play, literary freedom and community contribution have had a lasting effect on me.
I can't offer much detailed analysis of what the guide needs to be, though as a scifi writer I think a fiction section would definitely be nice, but I can say what I would need for this to become a site I use often.
1. Autosharing - I know this is not really the point of h2g2. It's supposed to be the ultimate guide after all, not some cross between wikipedia and facebook. Except of course that it is a cross between wikipedia and facebook, being as it is an online literary information store with an active community. The bottom line for this though is that I can now read a book on an amazon kindle and highlight passages or make notes which are instantly sent to my twitter and facebook accounts, meaning that if the EG were ever released as an ebook I would be able to share it in more ways than I can now. When books have more features than websites, there's something wrong.
2. Interconnectivity with similar sites - H2G2 should retain its purity of concept and just be that real Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, although wikipedia may have supplanted it in general usage, only h2g2 allows authors to put that personal touch onto their works. H2g2 is not alone in being a community of passionate writers though, A Teaspoon And An Open Mind and DeviantArt are two that come to mind which have that same sense of community and writing panache but use it in different ways. If H2G2 became connected to sites such as these then we could track writers across their work areas. DA does audiovisual stuff and fictional writing, Teaspoon does Doctor Who fan fiction. If H2G2 is to remain about the guide and yet still please people wanting to write fiction or post photos then this may be one possible answer. How it would connect is something I don't think I'm qualified to think about but perhaps sections on the homepage highlighting stuff going on in the other sites and an ability to share notifications of work a user has posted to other sites.
3. A downloadable ebook of highlights from the EG and UG - Surely noone needs me to explain this one
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Icy North
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| | Hi Mrs Zen,
I've been giving some thought to this over the past few days. I see h2g2 currently providing the following service elements. There may well be a few more I haven't thought of, and you may think of some of these in combination, but it's my brain dump at this point in time.
h2g2 Service Elements:
  A user-written stylised edited guide: The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Earth Edition
A creative writing repository: the Underguide
Community newsletter (The h2g2 Post)
Writing assistance/talent-spotting via PR/EGWW/AWW/FM (Scouts, UG volunteers)
Editing assistance (Sub-editors, UG volunteers)
Content Feedback/corrections (Curators)
Site feedback (Gurus, ACEs, h2g2 Editors)
Community artwork (Community Artists)
Community photography - to illustrate edited entries and Post articles (Photographers)
Pastoral support (ACEs, h2g2 Editors)
Volunteer coordination (h2g2 Editors)
Editorial picture library for illustrating guide entries (h2g2 Editors)
Community AV club (Aviators)
Customisable, restricted-HTML user home pages
Established discussion forums, including Askh2g2, Games Room, etc
User-creatable forums, eg clubs and societies, QI, SEx, Forum, etc
Blog-like journal
Subscribe facility to conversations, forums, journals
Social networking features, including friends' lists, 'Who's online'.
Single-sign on access to BBC Online messageboards, blogs etc.
Automatic recommendations of entries to Twitter and Facebook. (new)
A front page, updated weekly (or so), editorially controlled, including new/featured entries, talking point, etc.
Mobile device support
RSS/Facebook/Twitter feeds of new entries (h2g2 Editors)
Random entry: Infinite Improbability Drive
Full Text search of guide entries
Categorisation system for edited guide entries
Choice of skins (may soon be retired)
Smileys
Help pages
Moderation services
Security, ie house rules and enforcement of a scale of restrictive measures in respect of transgressions. (h2g2 Editors)
Oh, and I haven't included all the 'warranty' services that our hosts provide, like availability (staff to fix it when it goes wrong), capacity (staff to manage storage, bandwidth, etc), security (antivirus, intrusion control, etc) and continuity (Starting the service up on a disaster recovery site if the BBC gets bombed/flooded/burned).
So, why have I listed all these? Well, I believe we need to consider the value of each of these service elements in turn. Which would you want to retain in the new h2g2? You've invited ideas for new ones in this thread, but be aware that h2g2 already has this extensive suite of services already, and it's going to be a complex beast to manage, let alone transition to another provider.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Z
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46
| | I think that there's a number of things that we could do, we could elect a community editor every year who would have ultimate power to do moderation decisions. In the days prior to the BBC then we manged without reactive moderation. I also dno't think we are going to realistically be able to afford external moderation. We would have to just have a group of volunteers who were moderators.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Z
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48
| | We had younger users on the site prior to that and there weren't any problems. The BBC website is easily available in all schools, and they can easily read h2g2 at the moment, they just can't post. IF the young person is on the internet they have access to much much more disturbing material than h2g2! All they have to do is go to google and type in a swear word! I used to spend ages looking up naughty words in the dictionary when I was a child, so I hate to think what would have happened if we'd had google.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 29, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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57
| | It's good work, and vital work Milla. You are preaching to the converted, my dear. I just wanted to use this thread to discuss what we might now be able to do that the BBC wouldn't let us do.
I'm not entirely sure what the constraints are on documents in the Google group. The main google group is open to anyone and some non-hootooers have posted there. ("Strangerrrrrs").
There's also a closed group who've got the time and the energy to really put some effort in. I've not joined that group. The details are in the google group though.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by paulh. I'm a fool, but please think of me as a jester
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65
| | I've only just discovered this thread. Some great ideas! I've written a lot of short fiction and poetry, but it hasn't been in the UnderGuide. It's been in regular conversation threads.
When I first joined H2G2 in 2001, there were a lot of "Fan Club" threads. There are almost none of those left now. Instead, we have real conversations, or invitations to write a bad poem or short short story, or discuss the Gulf Oil Spill with someone living in the Gulf. I like it that when something major happens in some part of the world, we often have researchers who live there, and can discuss what the event is doing to them. I've made friends in South Africa, Denmark, Canada, and a number of other countries. I've enjoyed friendly competitions with other researchers to see who could write a sonnet using three words picked at random (hairnet, tires, and banana bread, for instance). I've enjoyed threads where a researcher would give a quote from a poem, and the rest of us would try to identify the poet and the title. There are also threads for nonsense poems and bad haiku. There are word association threads.
This is a great site for friends who like to stimulate each other's creativity.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by U94986
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68
| | "In the days prior to the BBC then we manged without reactive moderation."
No we didn't. We had exactly reactive moderation. If there was a problem someone would alert the editors, who would take action. It was just done without a specific button to push.
It is REALLY REALLY hard to moderate something fairly when you have a huge interest in it. It's even harder when you don't like someone, have had a falling out with a friend, or an ex-partner on the site who think everything you post is about them. So IF the site continues and has members of the community running it, then moderation decisions should not be taken alone.
Age limit - just put it back how it was and remove it. The Beeb I believe shut us down to 16 year olds as the pre-moderated CBBC board members were taking advantage of other community sites to get away with things they weren't allowed to do.
How old were YOU when you read Douglas Adams for the first time? 11? 12? They can either find their own bit of site to hang out in, or they'll learn to comunicate with adults, or they'll get bored and run away.
h2g2 could never have made it this far without volunteers, but without someone overall in charge I don't think we can make it.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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87
| | Huh?
It'sa standard management role in IT.
I know it looks like gobbdygook, but it would look like gobbldygook regardless of what organisation was advertising it.
"Service" means it is about looking after existing systems not developing new ones, (which it talks about problem management, incident management, disaster recovery etc).
"Release Management" means it is also about taking the code that the Development teams have written and managing the process of switching it on - not that straight forward if it involves changing the servers it runs on and the data bases and internet connections those servers are plugged in to.
I've got a couple of pals who'd be great in that role if it were in West Yorkshire rather than central London. In fact, I might pass the link on to them anyway.
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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94
| | *ahem*
Can we drag this thread back onto the question I asked when I first posted - about the future of the site after the BBC have relinquished it's interest in us?
I totally get why you are all distressed - Taff in particular, you made your point so well the other night when you talked about the party going on in the other room without you - but this thread is NOT set up to bitch about job ads that have nothing to do with the strategic decions which have landed us in this place. There are plenty of places here on h2g2 to do that.
This thread was set up to discuss how the community, the Guide and the site might work without the constraints and restrictions imposed by our current owners.
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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97
| | And just politely asking you not to, as I have always done when it seemed worth it, in threads which were about matters of substance.
It's a techy role, for someone whose job is to keep the servers running. It doesn't mention web or online systems at all, which suggests its for the Beeb's internal IT systems.
Hand on heart, the thing that irritates me is that y'all are poking shots at something which (a) is harmless (or "mostly harmless" ) and (b) you don't understand.
To give you a feel for why this scrapes on my nerves; I don't comment on or criticise people who are battling long term illness and trying to deal with incapacity benefit or the benefits system **because I don't understand them**. Likewise, Taff, I don't comment on people in the forces or in the particular line of work that you have, **because I've not got the experience to have an opinion in the matter**. Now, this is not to say you can't comment - of course you can - it's just to explain why my reaction to your comments is "well, there's a lot of folk sounding off about a subject they know jack about".
Like I said, I really do understand *why* you are angry and feel betrayed, though I would never claim to undersand *how* you feel. I can see from your posts that you are all very angry indeed.
All I am saying is that this particular thread was set up with a specific topic in mind, and it's not really a good one for derailing into conversations about badgers and stuff.
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by Z
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100
| | I agree that we have no way of knowing if the BBC have made a deal with a buyer behind our backs, they may well have done. If the buyer is someone who knows and understands h2g2 and will do a better job than us then that's fantastic! It means I can get back to finding out more about tiny blood vessels in the brain. They're very interesting you know.. If they do then great - the site continues.
We're here in case they don't find anyone, and there is no one in the pipeline. In that case we'll step up to the mark and try and put the show on right here in the sever farm.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 30, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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102
| | It's a carrot cake, with a lemon and cream cheese frosting. I am glad I married the man I did - he's much better at baking than I am.
Now....
Am I the only person who really misses FaceBook's "like" button? Or would it run the risk of dumbing down the threads? Do you think threads here could end up too like the "comments" threads in the Daily Mail if we had "like" and "dislike" buttons?
Raving Homophobia - Liked by 633, Disliked by 2 etc....
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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115
| | Surveys are definitely good - I forget they are an option on other sites.
I use the "like" button on FB in several different ways.
1) to say "I've read what you said and agree with it, but don't have anything particular to add to the conversation" A bit like the  smiley here, I guess. But you can't use the smiley here in any useful way if the conversation's moved on, whereas you can "like" a post at any time.
2) to say "I've read what you said and found it funny" - again a bit like  and again with the advantage that you can do it even if the conversation has moved on.
3) to say "it's a fair cop" if someone criticises or disagrees with me or takes the mikey a bit, and I think it IS a fair cop. It's a way of saying "I saw what you said and I'm not offended".
I miss it most on h2g2 when I'm reading the backlog and someone's made a particularly good point, but the conversation's moved on past it.
Ben
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Z
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122
| | But the point is why should we have to? I also write on wordpress and you can create h2g2 like entries without any detailed knowledge of code, it would be very very simple to create something similar for Guide ML.
There is the Guide ML clinic which covers it all.
Guide ML was great for an internet where nearly everyone had a working knowledge of HTML, but not so good for one where most people don't.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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125
| | That is an interesting question, Tod, and our future size and shape depends on the answer.
So here's another one: would you prefer a site run mainly by the community, with open source code so volunteers could write and test improvements, and where you (ie us, we) had a lot more say BUT the site had a lot less cash?
Or would you prefer a site where an owner funded full time staff, servers, bandwidth, etc, but where it was their site and we had to play by their rules?
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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127
| | No reason why you should Tod.
The question's about trade-offs.
If we end up with a site which we control completely, then we'll have complete collective say in how it works, but very little money for pretty shiny things or even for ugly dull things.
But if we are pwned, sorry owned by a business, or even by a philanthropist, then there would be money for staff and potentially for cool developments, but we'd have little to no say in how it worked or was run.
Which is better, which is worse, and why?
It's a question that's open to all, not just Tod.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by U94986
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131
| | Open source please. Or whatever it's called.
I used to argue for people to be able to skin h2g2, and the answer was 'maybe someone would skin it with child porn and put a photo in the Daily Mail' *sigh*
So people can add gadgets and googaws although it's already a bit complicated so maybe not. I use blogger, so a way to get stuff like that using plain text and get rid of GuideML, or maybe keep it for people who want it, but have it easy to get formatting without it.
I may be in the wrong thread here, sorry.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Vip
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136
| | Yeah, there's pluses and minuses, and a plus about being owned is that when something goes wrong there is someone to take the flak.
On the other hand, with a collective model we have far more incentive to keep the place happy and to work together to make stuff work. If we don't, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
With a volunteer group, as has been shown on h2g2 for the last few years, volunteers dwindle. Those remaining try to carry on so nobody outside of that group can tell, but in the end it's just a few people carrying the burden. Eventually they will no longer be able to do that.
If we do become a volunteer model we have to make sure that people feel able to drop out when real life takes over, secure in the knowledge that others are ready to step up to the plate.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Z
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141
| | This is all my personal opinion and not the opinion of the h2g2community collective committee, we're still all separate people, and we don't have opinions yet.
At the moment I genuinely don't know if we'll have any money at all for permanent staff on h2g2, at least not to begin with. We may be looking at a completely volunteer run site. I expect that we would 'appoint' an Editor, and a Community Editor, every year, maybe by election.
We have had a massive outpouring of 'what can I do'? and good will, with over 200 people joining the google group and asking how they can help. Including from people who have drifted away from posting actively, and from people who have never posted. If we do take over the running of the site the re-launch would be newsworthy enough in the technical world to get a huge boost of publicity. Which hopefully would bring in volunteers, I also hope that the wave of enphusism about 'save h2g2' will translate into a wave of volunteers.
A lot of researchers will have been expecting this, so will have been put off volunteering because 'there's no point if it's only going to be deleted'. It's also worth mentioing that it's pretty impossible to become a volunteer at the moment, when I re-joined the scouts I found that the editors had unsubscribed from the volunteer page, and I asked to become a sub ed ages ago and they still haven't got back to me.
If the Scouts and Sub-ed themselves could handle recruitment then it would be a lot easier - we wouldn't need to rely on the Editor to do it. We could have a chief scout - (Lord Baden Powell perhaps)? who would recruit and sort out who picks when, and a Chief Sub-Ed who could look after recruiting and organising the sub-eds and seeing that all entries get edited. ACEing is very important but should be about interacting with all new users, not just a cut-and-past of some links. If the new site is more user friendly, which Barlesque is, for all it's faults, then we shouldn't need to do some links, but could just pop by for a chat.
Lets not forget we could look at the writing guidlines in more detail, change some of the elements so that some writers who left can come back. Perhaps they can include a little more personal narrative, some limited use of first person perhaps, but still fact based non-fiction. This may bring in a new wave of writers and volunteers.
We may have to radically look at the way that entries are edited. The system of scout/sub ed/editor involves 3 people looking at and approving an entry before it's posted. A huge amount of the work of the sub-editor involves correcting the Guide ML, if there was a WYSIWIG GML editor then it would be easier to get the entries looking ok without a technical skill. I would like an entry to be able to go on the front page with three clicks.
1. Scout - saying that it's ok for the Guide - after checking with author that's ready
2. Sub-Ed saying the English is ok. Then it joins the queue
3. The Chief Editor pushes the button to put an entry on the front page.
This also gives us a huge opportunity to fully recognise the role of non-EG writing, and recognise it properly, even perhaps on an equal footing but marked differently to the EG.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Happy Nerd
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154
| | On the topic of Barlesque:
I can't use Barlesque to develop writing, as it is just too darn buggy right now, and I get easily frustrated. When I write anything short, I use a simple text editor to get most of my thoughts down. When I write anything longer or requiring deeper thought, even the State of Jefferson entry I currently have in PR, I use Scrivener.
On the subject of trying to use h2g2 as a editor:
I am starting to learn to love Scriviner, because it lets me work on a draft, keep track of any research, etc. But I can easily use any of the blogspot or wordpress style editors. I also like the way they let you keep a draft copy until you are ready to push "publish".
Why I would like to see the draft function:
I hate, hate, hate it when people drop by and comment on something I haven't asked for comments on. I am not talking about you Amy P, because you never commented unless I specifically asked you to take a look at a work in progress. I am not talking about my journal, which I know is open for comment to all. I am talking specifically about mean bleeps who think a good time to criticize my writing is when I'm still in the process of working on it, which they must KNOW is exasperating. In short, I am talking about trolls.
Why I want some my journal function:
I am sick and sad over the fact that I have to wade through I don't know how many pages of My Conversations to find my journal. If I had known that someday the BBC was going to come and take my journal away, I would never have kept it here. Or maybe I would have made an entry called My Journal and attached the threads of my thoughts to it, but how to I pick up all the pieces now and get them attached?
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Happy Nerd
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157
| | >>> a return to the non-censorship creative freedom vision DNA originally had for hootoo.
Yes, and then again, no.
Yes, in the degree that you and I might have something entirely different to say on the subject of anything from global warming to pocketknives, and we both should have the right to say them. However if I don't have anything better or different to say on global warming or pocketknives, why should my work be sitting next to yours in the Guide?
No, in the sense that if you come by my entry on either global warming or pocketknives, you should be able to change it to your viewpoint, as is done in a wiki world. And the main reason I won't contribute to wikis anymore.
Yes, in that there should be a variety of possible types of entries, labeled as such. I also think in addition to labeling, they should be given the same degree of peer review, sub-editorial attention, curating, etc. Including but not limited to:
-Fact
-Fiction
-Opinion
-Humor
-Personal narrative
-Pub, Restaurant, or other venue reviews
-Book, Film, Theatre, Computer Game, or other media reviews
-Travelogues
-Prose
-Poetry
-Cartoon
-First person narratives
-A blending of fact and fiction, called variously historical fiction, fictionalized history, "this is based on a true story", etc.
-A summary of some of our more long running threads, some of which are more or less text-based MUSHs (Multi-User Shared Hallucinations).
No, in the sense that I have read some of the early EG entries, and I sincerely hope that wasn't what DNA had in mind. There are some sparkly gems in the compost heap of the early works, to be sure, but there is an awful lot of compost to sift through.
Yes, in the sense that I would like the opportunity to read what several writers have to say on any subject. I don't want to be limited to only being able to find an entry from a writer that got something - no matter how slap-dash, poorly written, or downright boring - in the EG first.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Z
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158
| | I have a vision of completing an entry, submitting it for review, and then having a pop up saying 'Is this for the Edited Guide or the Underguide?' (or post), and then the entry gets tagged appropriately, and submitted to the right forum.
I think that EG and UG should have separate miners, and editors, but the same standing on the front page. Each should be a part of the Guide.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Icy North
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161
| | I agree the Underguide should be presented on an equal footing to the Edited Guide, but with subtle delineation to distinguish the two (so nobody gets confused between fact and fiction). However, compared to the EG, it's going to be far harder and require some serious volunteer dedication to get creative writing novices up to the standard it is now.
In fact, I believe the standard is almost unnattainably high to the untalented but aspiring novice. I'd dearly love to be able to contribute to it, but, even if successful, I suspect I'd only ever dilute it.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by Solnushka (Foundation)
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168
| | I really liked Happy Nerd's list of categories. I think categories could be the way towards merging the two guides.
I do strongly object to the guidelines for the EG being kept as they are now.
And reviews should surely be in the EG anyway? I'm sure that sort of thing was codified by the Man Himself. I remember reading something about his vision being that you'd be reading the review of the cafe you were in the Guide, and adding your own little comment, and then someone else would add a comment, and you'd look round and realise there was another researcher in the room.
Of course, that does mean we are obliged to make sure the thing is phone app enabled.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Jan 31, 2011 by KB
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171
| | Reviews, I suppose, have their place. But the problem is that unless we have enough writers in enough places to be at least *reasonably* comprehensive, it's never going to be the first place people come to look up a restaurant review.
The other thing is that unless you want a review of The Golden Dragon in Kilmarnock (which, by sheer probability, will be the case for most readers), a review of it is going to be no use to you.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Happy Nerd
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181
| | I agree with Shagbark, and I would like to extend applying the Edited label to anything that has appeared in the UG or The Post.
I would like to see all the aforementioned quality written and artistically rendered items treated equally, indexed so they could be easily found, etc.
And of course I agree with Icy that it should be clear for any given piece what sort of writing is being presented. Fortunately editors in other publications have already paved this road for us. Here for example is how The New Yorker describes the linked piece:
SHOUTS & MURMURS imagining the financial crisis being played out in a game of Monopoly…
by Woody Allen
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2011/01/24/110124sh_shouts_allen
The h2g2 of my imagining ought to allow a person to index a piece by any of my aforementioned categories, plus all the ones I didn't think of.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Z
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182
| | Good point. I think that re-writing the writing guidelines is a must. They were written when we were trying to compete with Wikipedia, now that there's a large, dry, encyclopedia on the internet we don't try and become it.
I often use Wikipedia to look up the function of various proteins. Now we can contrate on being a Guide, but a more accessible guide. We still have to carry on with the EG mission.
I also think that it should be possible to have the balanced factual entries clearly marked, as they are the ones that could be used as some sort of source by readers.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Happy Nerd
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184
| | I am not hating on wikipedia, although I have done some hating on it in the past. It is fine for what it is: an encyclopedia that everyone can edit at any time.
No one reads an encyclopedia for pleasure. No one reads an encyclopedia entry and says, "Wow, that was a clever turn of phrase." No one hunts down any of the writers/editors of an encyclopedia entry on, say, proteins and interviews them as an expert in the field; they interview the authors of the works cited.
h2g2 attracts readers, writers, and lovers of good writing.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by U94986
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189
| | I have to admit I wouldn't be interested in continuing on h2g2 as a writer unless there was still the Edited Guide in a very similar form. If it's open to The Post & Underguide, personal opinions, people's write ups of family members, poems, stories etc I can't help but feel it would lesson h2g2 somehow.
I'd certainly feel there was no achievement or hard work needed anymore. Reviews are different, yes I feel they have a place, even first person as they are helpful but obviously then it's difficult to update them by someone else (which is why it's 3rd person, although the rules have got stricter over the years which could do with loosening a bit again).
I came to play, but stayed to write. I wouldn't have stayed so long without the EG and if it's changed because more people want it to, that's great for them, but I can't see me writing for it anymore, or having the sense of pride in my entries I currently do.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Mrs Zen
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192
| | >> I have to admit I wouldn't be interested in continuing on h2g2 as a writer unless there was still the Edited Guide in a very similar form. If it's open to The Post & Underguide, personal opinions, people's write ups of family members, poems, stories etc I can't help but feel it would lesson h2g2 somehow.
Mmmmm - that's the nub of it, isn't it? How to maintain the bar ar it's current height which is good for readers and good for writers, but at he same time how to release the bottle-neck caused by the Editors' time not having enough time? (i think there is less in PR because there is less going through to the front page, not the other way round).
And how to maintain the quality standards and apply them to a broader remit? Perhaps if there were two review forums, one for tweaking, where you'd put personal stuff you were reluctant to have drastically re-written, and one for PR-style baptism-of-fire which you could still put personal stuff in to, but where it would be fair game.
I've seen poetry websites in the US run on that model of different forums giving differnt levels of critique.
Bn
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Z
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| | I'm totally with Mina that The Guide should continue in it's current form - it's a unique, guide to the universe and it should continue. Whenever I explain why we should save h2g2 I mention The Edited Guide.
Preserving the The Edited Guide is one of the main reason I want to preserve the site. I'm really proud of my writing for it as well. There are people who come to read because they want to read read-able, reality based entries, if they find that fiction, and opinion are mixed it it dilutes it.
One of my visions for the site is to have an Edited Guide that you can browse on your mobile device. If we tagged it with places you could see which edited guide entries related to wherever you were. I dream of producting an h2g2 Encyclopedia, a compendium of the best EG entries.
I also think that we could give equal prominence and status to non-EG work on the front page - but that it should be clearly marked as separate so that it doesn't dilute what we've got.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Effers;England.
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>>What would your dream of h2g2 be Effers? <
Oh no you bstd you put me on the spot
Something along the lines that Shagbark said, about 'Edited Guide' subject to strong Peer Review...and 'Guide' which isn't.
Those terms are fairly neutral to me. The Guide would be where people could be much more expressive and anarchic because not subject to pressure of Peer Review. Special stuff could emerge via playfullness and be applauded by the community.
The Edited Guide to me would be much closer to the spirit of h2g2 guide though. So it would be about the quality of the *writing* itself. I do believe in gold standard...but I'm not entirely sure at present what gold standard is.
***Most important*** We don't just compete with wiki, as Twiglet pointed out somewhere else, we lost that one.
That's all I can manage for now, and yes I agree we are not so far apart.
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| | | Subject: Recovering from Stockholm Syndrome - h2g2 after the BBC
Posted Feb 1, 2011 by Icy North
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| | One problem we have in deciding the editorial direction of this site is that we are all seeing it from the contributors' viewpoint.
Clearly, the vast majority of h2g2 hits are made by non-contributors. We currently have no idea what they like to read. Our masters (the BBC) have kept us in the dark about this, maybe to retain the integrity of their experiment - to see how we evolve in isolation.
This is why the pop-up survey results and page hit stats are gold dust.
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