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This is the Conversation Forum for Ask h2g2 << What are you optimistic about? Norton 360 >> Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 8, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 821 <<THE INITIALS T R O T K WERE ONCE USED BY MEMBERS OF THE UNAMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE TO TRY TO PROVE TOLKIEN WAS PROMOTING A TROTSKIEST AGENDA.>> For real? Or is this a p*sstake? Surely not even they would be that stupid! Un-be-flipping-lievable! Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 8, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 822 <<Did anyone else find the "Oirishness" of the shire in FOTR a bit grating . I'm sure this comes from Hollywoods lazy use of the English Villain >> Yes!!! I think that comes also, from the fact that NZ was settled 66% by *Scottish* people and maybe another 20% by Irish, and that's what they think, when they think of Britain. (I say they, although my mother was of scottish descent, because my father came from England in the 1950s, and felt well out of place here!) The "English villain" is a particular obsession with me, ask anyone who's heard me rant about it (especially when Australians like Colin wossname or NZers like Sam Neil play British villains!) Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 9, 2004 by Dark Side of the Goon This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 823 But the English villain is a staple of every decent movie! I mean, who else has the style, the arrogance, the flair, the sheer...panache...to be evil and carry it off without descending into melodrama? ONLY the English are good enough! That's why Saruman is a Brit, and why we ALL know Sauron is a Brit and so, dammit, was Morgroth! Glorfindel can be Autralian though. Can't you just see Steve Irwin in the part? "Now, that Nazgul only went for me because I provoked him. I'm in his environment, I'm the stranger...so I'll just put him back on his Fell Beast...Crikey, that was close!" Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 9, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 824 Steve Irwin in the part... As the credit card advert says, priceless! Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 10, 2004 by Dark Side of the Goon This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 825 Imagine The Council of Elrond: "Crikey!" said Glorfindel "Give a bloke a fair go! Let's cast the Ring into the nearest deep bilabong, make the lies of that Bludger Saruman come true. Cuz it's clear that the feet of the Council were already on dodgy path!" So who else can we miscast? William Shatner as Bilbo? "I...don't KNOW...half of you as wellasIshould LIKE (smug smile) aaand I like LESS...thanhalf...ofyou as wellasyou deserve!" Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 10, 2004 by Bistroist This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 826 Terence Hill and Bud Spencer as Legolas and Gimli No? cheers ~Bistro Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 10, 2004 by Recumbentman This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 827 Ah Della, this is a wonderfully central question, but I don't expect to get to the bottom (oops) of it here. I saw recently a case made for Judas, that since he was doing God's will he was doing right, not wrong. Doing right for the wrong reasons; like unwittingly telling the truth while believing you are lying. Guillty or not? Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Dame_Hermione This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 828 Billy Connolly as Tom Bombadil ? "A tree eeetin a HOBBIT ? Wha the f's tha all aboot!" In the background Pamela Stephenson looks ethereal and fails to convince anyone she can play a harp . Now I write it down I think in fact he was born for the part . Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Flamestrike This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 829 How about the kid from sixth sense as Frodo. I see Ringwraiths *breah frosting the air* Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Shagrath (Join the Metal Appreciators' Society @ A2556489) This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 830 Frodo was supposed to be fifty. What's up with that? Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Dark Side of the Goon This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 831 Yep! By the time he gets round to leaving the Shire, Frodo is in his fifties and 'unnaturally well preserved', just like Bilbo was. There are something like 20 years between Bilbo's farewell party and Frodo actually getting out of Bag End. Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Sho - It's Mrs G to you! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 832 yeah, but we forgive Sir Peter of Jackson, don't we? Because Elijah Wood is a little sweetie. Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 11, 2004 by Shagrath (Join the Metal Appreciators' Society @ A2556489) This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 833 Yeah, I guess the movies wouldn't be as desirable if everyone was really old. It's understandable. Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 12, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 834 Ah, didn't T S Eliot say something about the greatest treason being to do the right thing for the wrong reason? (I studied Murder in the Cathedral for 2 years in a row, 5th and 6th form. It's all there in my mind, a dim memory... ) In Judas' case, I suppose it's doing the wrong thing for a right reason? Maybe. It is a deep question, and maybe whereas the *law* takes no account of intent or nmotive (so my ex, a lawyer told me) morally, intent is what counts. Judas' intent was, one theory says, political - in order to spark a rebellion against Rome... Interesting. Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 12, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 835 Ah, didn't T S Eliot say something about the greatest treason being to do the right thing for the wrong reason? (I studied Murder in the Cathedral for 2 years in a row, 5th and 6th form. It's all there in my mind, a dim memory... ) In Judas' case, I suppose it's doing the wrong thing for a right reason? Maybe. It is a deep question, and maybe whereas the *law* takes no account of intent or motive (so my ex, a lawyer told me) morally, intent is what counts. Judas' intent was, one theory says, political - in order to spark a rebellion against Rome... Interesting. Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 14, 2004 by Recumbentman This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 836 Good points Della. I feel sure there is a Mel Gibson thread going on somewhere, that this conversation aout Judas belongs in better. I'm not going to pursue it here, if you'll excuse me, as it is *way* off thread. Unless we stick with Gollum; my belief is that he is not (in the book) the fairly rational, moral agent we see in the film, but a demented sub-human, a mindless slave of the ring. Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 14, 2004 by DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me! This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 837 Absolutely! There have been many complaints that Jackson made Gollum too "cute", and I tend to agree, he's too rational. I feel pity for book Gollum, but film Gollum not so much (though still a lot.) The track 'Gollum's song" on LOTR:TTT is brlliant, and conveys something of the film makers' views of the being... Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 15, 2004 by Flamestrike This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 838 I agrre with you Della. It is a brilliant song; relavant, cleverly done yet so fatalistic. I think I disagree on making Gollum too cute. In ROTK I feel they made Gollum too inbuilt evil, like he was completly corrupt already and the ring only excegerated it. Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 15, 2004 by StrontiumDog This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 839 Re The english Villan I think the trouble with non english villans is that they all seem to spend a lot of time trying very hard to be villanous. I also think that Moriaty has a lot to do with the heritage on the subject. Chris Lee's Saruman works not because he is putting a lot of effort into appearing evil, but because he presents himself as beliving he is right, beliveing he is powerful, and not considering the possibility that his choice to ally himself with Sauron might be wrong. The plot then shows how misguided and evil he is. A good villan should not know he is the villan, and this seems to me the mistake a lot of actors make (to be fair there are english ones too) I also think that despite the fact that the British and US are allies at present, that the British represent the 'old enemy' in the American Psyche, and even if TLOTR was filmed in NZ it was almost certainly financed by and aimed predominantly at an american Market. I think that there are many American actors who might well have played any of the roles well. Dustin Hoffman for instance, but with TLOTR the Englishness of the book may well have suffered, and I for one am greatfull Peter Jackson made the choices he did, particularly with Andy Skersis (Might have spelled that wrong) Read the First Reply to this Posting Subject: Lord of the Rings: what did Tolkien mean? Posted Mar 15, 2004 by Dark Side of the Goon This is a reply to this Posting   Posting 840 "A good villan should not know he is the villan, and this seems to me the mistake a lot of actors make (to be fair there are english ones too) " Gonna have to disagree with you there. Possibly the BEST villain in English literature is Richard the Third. If you don't know the play, part of the infamous 'Now is the winter of our discontent' speech is Richard saying to the audience 'I'm not a nice guy, I'm bored and because I'm bored I'm having my brother and the King killed just because I can!' He's a great bad guy, he sets out to be the bad guy and he makes a concious decision to be the bad guy. The result is glorious! Read the First Reply to this Posting << < Conversation list << < Conversation list

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