 | | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by  Baron Grim
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 | | I had never before heard of David Ingram... I'll have to learn more. About half a century later, the first of my American ancestors settled in Virginia. There's probably little or no direct relation but I do want to learn more.
Also, as a Texan, this interests me. Even though no one knows his actual route, I'm nearly certain he would have passed through the part of the state I'm familiar with, the Southeast gulf coast and up through the Piney Woods region.
Of course one thought just occurs to me... How much would his party be a vector of disease at this time. I'm sure he would have left a swath of European viral and bacteriological diseases in his path. This could partially explain the population discrepancies between his accounts and the populations witnessed by early settlers in the 17th century. In the long run I'm sure it would have been of negligible historical difference, as the European settlers were already on their way. But still, a party such as his travelling through country populated with people with no immunities would have a significant impact I should think.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by anhaga
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 | | There's a huge literature out there about the impact of disease on pre-contact North and South American populations and societies. I suspect that Ingram's journey (if it happened at all) would have spread a certain amount of disease and that disease would have had a major impact on the societies he encountered. And, this certainly would have made a difference, even though Europeans were on their way: As it turned out, Europeans encountered a recently vacated land (there are accounts of what appears to be a heavily settled land that seemed to have been suddenly abandoned). If the Europeans had found a densely populated land, things would have followed a somewhat different course, I can't help thinking.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by Baron Grim
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| | I never hear much about diseases the Europeans contracted from the Natives... except for 'Montezuma's Revenge' and that is not a communicable disease but a waterborn one. On a side note, I've heard there is evidence that the Soviets supplied vast amounts of small pox vaccine to the west in an effort to turn us all into 'Indians'... A reference to the lack of immunity the Native Americans had to European diseases. Apparently it worked because today we are very afraid of a small pox outbreak as we no longer have immunity to small pox as we 'thought' it was wiped out.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading more on this. If his story is true, what a journey that must have been. How fantastical it must have seemed. Of course, when you're struggling to survive how much time do you set aside for wonderment.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by anhaga
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| | You should read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" about why diseases didn't seem to go the other way. The short answer is that there weren't a whole lot of epidemic spawning diseases in the Americas because there weren't a lot of domestic animals living in close proximity to dense populations of really dirty and messy humans, unlike in Europe.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by Alfredo
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| | Well the natives díd have their immunities, but that was just as local as ours.
The Europeans had also a way of biological warfare, by exporting purposeful blankets where children with smallpox had died in....
But this solo-walk as described is impressive and inspiring.
A man who discovers the world; all by his own.
Great !
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 13, 2004 by anhaga
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| | You know, I've known about Ingram's journey for about twenty years: I have old photocopies of Hakluyt that I made from the copy in the local university library at least that long ago, but I really don't remember where I first heard about the story. I guess it was just an accidental discovery.
Unlike the "South-Pointing Cart". I remember exactly where I first learned of that. Hmm. . .
<entryideasmiley>
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Jan 14, 2004 by Baron Grim
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| | I wasn't making a comment on the accidental nature of the discovery as much as commenting on the fact that Columbus, Erikson and Ingram 'discovered' a place that was pretty well known to the people living there at the time. Imagine someone coming to your neighborhood and planting a flag on your corner and yelling "Hey, I discovered this place". Just a matter of perspective really.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Apr 23, 2012 by ITIWBS
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| | California was spared the epidemics affecting most of the remainder of the Americas until the opening of the state by the 1849 gold rush.
The colony as originally established under the Spanish and the Franciscans during the age of the Spanish Enlightenment was rigorously careful when evaluating prospective colonists on questions of health and moral character and the California colonists were forbidden to trade with vessels of other nations than Spain.
Though they did that anyway, they kept up a very strict quarantine, so that over much of the Spanish and , after the Mexican Revolution, subsequent Mexican colonial eras, California was well nigh as difficult to visit as places like Japan, Korea and China.
When California was annexed by the USA in 1849 and the gold rush immigration followed, the epidemics took the lives of 90% of the native Americans, which was typical through out most of the Americas when territories were first opened to the European influx.
I've seen a cross section of one of the mass graves of the period, a six by six foot trench chocabloc with skeletal remains.
Pity, if the opening of the state had been delayed 125 years, vaccines and effective treatments for most of the contributing diseases might have been available.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Apr 26, 2012 by anhaga
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| | Hi, muttoneer.
As I mention in the entry, the source of the story is Hakluyt and he didn't include it in every edition.
There are certainly a number of editions out there of just the bit about Ingram. I haven't been able to find any online, but I didn't look very hard.
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| | | Subject: Very Interesting
Posted Apr 27, 2012 by muttoneer
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| | Got it! Hakluyt seems to be available only in the 1599 second edition, certainly as far as I could make out. However a linked bibliography told me all the other places Ingram's original account can be found: http://www.biographi.ca/EN/009004-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=350 - foot of page.
I managed to find the account, in all it's glory, free online (via Google Play) as part of the following book:
P. C. G. Weston, Documents connected with the history of South Carolina (London, 1956)
The relevant pages are pp.7-19
I've posted the info above so anyone who wants to read the original can find it. It makes very good reading! 
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