A Conversation for 'Tatemae' and 'Honne' in Japanese Society
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Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Started conversation Apr 26, 2001
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A540794
I just finished this one a minute ago. Have a look.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! Posted Apr 26, 2001
While this is a GREAT topic, I have to say that I feel like I somehow know less about the subject after reading the entry.
I now know that these words exist and have some meaning regarding social customs in Japan, but I still have no idea where the customs (or really, modes of relating, but customs is easier to type) came from, how long they've been entrenched in the society, to what degree are they entrenched across the society, etc. I'm also unsure how this differs any from the "little white lies" that seem to exist across all cultures -- i.e., no one ever tells the CEO that he has a booger hanging out of his nose, and men everywhere have learned to tell women that they look nice even when they don't.
Is there more on this subject you can tell us?
Mikey
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
xyroth Posted Apr 27, 2001
It is more important that there is no term for the intermediate state, when everyone but the husband knows that the wife is cheating, but nobody has the guts to tell him. I spot this regularly, and try to make sure that it does not continue, by first, making it plain to the cheat that I know, then letting them know that eventually someone will tell their partner, giving them the opertunaty to tell them first, and eventually, if they fail to do anything, leaving them with no doubt that after a certain time, "I" will tell the partner, forcing them to come clean. If after the partner knows, there are no objections, then it is one of the two previous cases, and it can be left between them.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
D'uh...
well. Hm.
Mikey, what I can do is elaborate on how it differs from the white lie, in that it doesn't, very much. The one thing is that where the white lie is just a face-saver, tatemae is a whole mode of communication and conduct, a whole composure that is taken far more seriously than that.
I will see what i can do. As fas as the linguistic history of the word, I don't think I can say much about that other than a few things.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
...and this is where you value honne over tatemae- which shows your preference for ethic morality over social morality. Like I said.
And no, there is no term for that intermediate state. I'm sorry. Blame the Japanese
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! Posted Apr 27, 2001
hey, prez --
I wasn't so much thinking about the linguistic history of the word as I was the sociological/anthropological history of the concept. I actually had to take a year of Japanese history and literature in college, and thinking back, I don't think these concepts were simply innate in Japanese culture across the centuries -- ergo, they must have developed at some point.
Mikey
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
Well from everything I hear about Japan, the concept of multiple realities is, on the contrary, quite present throughout their way of thinking about things. Consider an anthropologist who passed a questionnaire to a few hundred Japanese students, asking them to fill out what religious beliefs they identified themselves with, ranging from nihilism, to christianity, from shintoism to satanism.
Imagine her surprise and suspicion when she got the questionnaires back, but with the strangest cocktails of religious identification ticked 'yes' in all seriousness. People believing in nihilism AS WELL AS polytheist shintoism, TOGETHER with monotheist christianity, and so on.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
Oh and I revised the article, putting in some white lie comparison, and some elaboration on multiple reality. If I do more honing and explaining, however, I fear I will lose the pointy nature of the article... whatcha think?
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Martin Harper Posted Apr 27, 2001
you missed the A-number in the title - you might want to post another thread which has the formatting all perfect... it'll make it easier when the time comes to recommend it...
So, in BSE, tatemae would be the statement "British Beef is Safe", where as Honne would be the scientific hedge of "well, we think it's safe, and there's no real evidence otherwise, but I guess it *might* be unsafe, though if it is the risk ought to be pretty low"? Handy words...
I thought your explanation was good, and the discussion of the differences with western modes of thought was fascinating - the whole thing struck a deep chord, though I think I'll remain a honne-person in general for now...
Is your example of the bank employee a real one, or something you've made up? It's kinda unclear which, and while it isn't important I think it ought to be said.
I guess the best English equivalent word would be "tact" - though in theory it doesn't extend to outright lying, in practice it generally does...
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Martin Harper Posted Apr 27, 2001
As for the pointy nature being lost... I wonder if a title something like "The Japanese Solution" - being put just above the para beginning "In the Japanese language, an explicit"... I think that'd help with the focus.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
LUCIEN-Scouting the web for the out of the ordinary Posted Apr 27, 2001
I find the distinction quite interesting. Particularly being an American and therefore "western". Truth between people, I've noticed is more often than not based upon personal feelings. As a matter of fact I was talking about this very subject with my wife yesterday.
Consider, children in schools... Usually the one child that doesn't have the right look or right color or right whatever that the "in" crowd does have is treated differently. And of course this is a completely subjective opinion. Clearly based on personal/moral/ideological standpoint and not what is real.
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Ariel Posted Apr 27, 2001
This is such a facinating topic.. the whole mode of communication in Japan is very different from the West, and often Westerners find it absolutely confounding. These two words are like the proverbial tip of the ice berg (are you planning on writing more aritcles on the subject of Japanese communication vs Western? I for one, would be ery interested). One really intriguing concept in Japan is the concept of haragaie. Its very elusive conceptually but its sort of loosely defined as communication from one gut and is VERY important in negotiation, conflict resolution, etc. It relies on the notion that this is not game playing, that conflicts can be resolved so that everyone is a winner and saves face, and that "ma" or silence, is almost more important than speaking. "Ma" is not silence in the way Westerners think of it, it is better defined as the "pregnant pause" or a meaningful silence.
Anyway, sorry I went off on a tangent! I could talk about this all day.. thanks for such an enjoyable read and discussion!
cheers-
Ariel
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
Ariel: sounds like you have an idea for an article of your own right there.
Lucinda: Did I- yes, I guess I did omit the A number in the PR thread.
Woops! Will correct this, I guess. Will this one be sinbinned then?
Oh well. Anyway, the anecdote about the frenchman is real: a japanese friend of a friend of mine told me about him. and the fact that the frenchman was so offended, was a real let-down for the japanese guy, since he had grown to like this guy. it would have been the start of a beautiful frienship..
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
I set up a new thread, this time WITH the A# to give scouts an easier time. It's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/FFM48874?thread=109381&skip=0&show=20#p931494
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 27, 2001
this one can be sinbinned, or ignored, ended or eaten, or used as decoration for one of those hawaiian cabanas I hear SO much about
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Barton Posted Apr 27, 2001
This is an excellent topic and one which I am very much interested in. It relates closely to an article I am working on about the significance of jargon in English and the dangers relatedd to not being aware of such issues. In short, it relates to social relativism which is precisely the arena this article is in.
There are, of course, social noises in Western society, as you suggest. But, one point that I think is there in your article but is not well defined is that Tatemae and Honne are not formalizations of insincere behavior. Instead, they define to complete *societies* that intermix in Japanese culture. I suspect that they grow out of the need to preserve personal space in an overcrowded society, but I have no proof of that.
The Japanese have simply developed these two approaches to living into two separate and fairly complete philosophies. Westerners often remark about the people wearing white gloves who are paid to shove more people into the subway cars. The need for such a service is obvious and the Japanese can easily accept such a thing as part of that formal side of their culture. Americans, at least, would not willing tolerate that sort of thing.
Can you imagine if your best friend worked at such a job and found himself in the position of having to cram you into the crush on a train station. How would you react? Would you acknowledge that you knew him? Could you continue to be friends in the same way?
Having a culture based on doing business, as well as one based on living well as a person, fully intermixed and, to a very great extent, formalized is almost a necessity to the Japanese.
I suspect that it is not that far away for the West as well. My wife once found herself as the manager of her best friend in an office setting. They would meet after work and her friend would talk about how her boss hand been such a b**ch that day. My wife would have to agree with her. My brother, on the other hand, went into the family business and could not seperate what happened at work where my mother was the bookkeeper and my father owned the business from his life with our parents. It ultimately lead to a major split in the family.
The first example is very close to the Japanese paradigm while the second is very much a problem of the Western paradigm.
My point, I guess, is that *our* social noises and polite (or 'civilized') behavior are in some ways responsible for many of the problems the West is having with social unrest particularly since most of us aren't fully aware of the distinction and its necessity. The Japanese are *not* being insincere or dishonest. They are formally recognizing that two distinct realities exist and must be acknowledged. That the two have very different value systems is just all the more reason to keep them distinct. It is typically Japanese in its sensibility and practicality.
In addition to any value you might derive from this babbling, please go through your article and italicize all the foreign words. I would also suggest that you break this article into sections with proper headings for the sake of clarity and to break up the page. There are also a few typos which you will catch during this process.
Thanks for an entertaining read.
Barton
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Barton Posted Apr 27, 2001
An additional thought, the closest that Westerners come to the Japanese way of doing things is in devotion to hobbies and collections, those activities where we are most often described as being 'eccentric' and which our friends allow for.
Barton
Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) Posted Apr 28, 2001
Barton, thanks a lot for pointing out a major shortcoming in the article. Indeed the Japanese are not being dishonest at all, and in claiming that, I am writing subjectively, not explaining thier point of view enough. I will have to rewrite a large part of it to correct the error.
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Tatemae vs. Honne: The Japanese being honest about dishonesty
- 1: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 26, 2001)
- 2: Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! (Apr 26, 2001)
- 3: xyroth (Apr 27, 2001)
- 4: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 5: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 6: Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! (Apr 27, 2001)
- 7: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 8: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 9: Martin Harper (Apr 27, 2001)
- 10: Martin Harper (Apr 27, 2001)
- 11: LUCIEN-Scouting the web for the out of the ordinary (Apr 27, 2001)
- 12: Ariel (Apr 27, 2001)
- 13: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 14: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 15: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 27, 2001)
- 16: Ariel (Apr 27, 2001)
- 17: Barton (Apr 27, 2001)
- 18: Barton (Apr 27, 2001)
- 19: Prez HS (All seems relatively quiet here) (Apr 28, 2001)
- 20: Barton (Apr 28, 2001)
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